==(John Steinmetz enters discussion on SP#9 photos:)

JS to DO -->>

I remember that time at Zappa's. It was, I believe, the first of two times I was there. I can't remember why we went, or why we had our instruments. The photographer was doing some shots of Frank--I can almost remember the photographer's name, because he later took pictures of the L.A. Chamber Orchestra for a wonderful brochure with individual shots of orchestra members in tails but in fun positions or with props. I forgot that Richard Emmet was there.

Anyway, Frank invited us over to the piano, with the photographer in tow, and showed us the transcription of the "The Dangerous Kitchen" that he had just received from the transcriber, and started playing it. We joined in, and I remember that Frank was impressed that we could sightread the stuff. I don't know if he told us that at the time or if he told you later. Anyway, it was a fun, weird sort of jam session.

The second visit was when you recorded the 4 clarinet parts and I recorded the 4 bassoon parts of Mo 'n Herb's Vacation.

DO -->>

(The photographer was John Livzey.) I do remember that he took some very excellent shots of me that day. The transcriber John refers to was, of course, Steve Vai.

THE LSO SESSIONS

affz -->> re: London Symphony Orchestra sessions from 1983:

I am amazed to hear the details of the drinking that went on in the recordings and at the concerts. Someone close my jaw! Is this is a cultural characteristic of British orchestras or something? I'm appalled. In all my experience as a symphonic,studio and theater musician in New York, I have never encountered any examples of open social drug consumption of any kind in working situations. And provided by management, no less!

==

DO -->>

I never saw anyone drink during rehearsal or concert, only before and after (and intermissions). I saw a back-stage bar in use before a concert at the Queen Elizabeth Hall as well as the Barbican so I concluded that must be a common thing. I suspect, however, that this is a cultural difference between Britain and the US, not something limited to orchestra life. I also remember being amazed that casual beer drinking was visible on television - like a talkshow host and guest sitting with beer on the table in front of them! And another thing I couldn't figure out: they drink beer warm!!!

Maybe there's someone around here with enough experience of both English and American society and orchestra life to shed some light on how alcohol is actually tolerated there. And whether the orchestra managements really do wink at it.

==

affz -->>

I now think that someone's "beer-drinking hooligans" remark has some validity. Regardless of whatever challenges, reasonable or not, imposed on them by Frank and his music, that's inexcusable.

==

DO -->>

"beer-drinking" for sure; "hooligans" I have trouble with. I only ever hear the world "hooligan" used in regard to English football fans who vandalize property after games. I'd simply say that in this case their toleration of drinking resulted in lower quality musical product than Frank might otherwise have gotten. If he'd hired an orchestra in the US he'd have gotten much less rehearsal for the same amount of money and therefore probably the same sort of result. And likely Frank would have had some "orchestral stupidity" story to tell about them too.

==

affz -->>

I'm considering buying the new Ryko release of the LSO 2CD (to replace my old single CD). Would you recommend it?

==

DO -->>

Hell if I know. I lost track of all the permutations of those recordings a long time ago. If you buy the new one you'll get extra tracks (Pedro's Dowry and Envelopes I think - at least if your single CD is the same as mine). Frank kept editing and editing those tapes hoping to make them better. He had the recordings transferred to hard disk and was tinkering with them on computer (I think the program is called Sound Tools). I couldn't say whether this new disk is edited differently than the previous ones. I doubt that any amount of editing could fix some of the problems with the performances.

It's kind of hard for me to listen to that album - I worked very hard on all that music - and I agree with Frank's attitude that it really doesn't sound as good as it should. Someday, somewhere, some orchestra will play this music really well and we'll all throw the LSO albums away and forget about them. Years after the London session Frank mentioned several possibilities about second performances of Mo 'n Herb with European orchestras -but all apparently fell through. I'd love to hear some other clarinetist play that solo part - I believe I'm the only one who's ever actually performed that music with an orchestra.

==

affz -->>

I just recently (yesterday) picked up the new LSO release. I think the sound quality, the music, and of course your clarinet solos, are wonderful. I was wondering if you recorded your parts on Jan 12, 13, 14 (1983) with the rest of the orchestra or if you, Chad, and Ed Mann were able to record your parts back in the U.S. afterwards? Also, I was wondering if you knew more about the new release and what was done in the remix.

==

DO -->>

Those recordings have no overdubs that I'm aware of. Everything was recorded in one big airplane-hanger studio. The whole orchestra took up only half of it. It was a big orchestra - with (as I remember) 9 percussionists (including Chad and Ed). The recordings were made in a sound truck parked outside. There were miles of cable, each section was miked every which way with PZM mikes attached to strangely shaped plexiglas baffles. Each section was recorded to a separate digital track - so it's no surprise that the recording sound have a kind of studio over-dub sound to it.

My strongest personal memory of those sessions is of 'jet-lag'. We had flown into London about a week earlier, there were lots of rehearsals at Hammersmith Odeon (but Frank wouldn't record there because he was bothered by transformer noise backstage) and a new studio was found at very, very short notice. Then the concert at the Barbican happened. That performance was the high point of my life, no question about it - my 20 minutes of fame. I distinctly remember standing on the little podium (in the middle of the string section) just before the performance and reminding myself "I'm playing with the London Symphony Orchestra". It was mind boggling for me. The next day the recordings were definitely anti-climactic for me (not for Frank of course -his entire focus was on getting the music recorded not on the live performance). All my energy seemed to disappear during the sessions and I couldn't keep my eyes open. I can remember sitting in my chair recording Mo 'n Herb and as soon as a take was completed I'd close my eyes and drift off. I had learned the music so well at that point I guess I could probably have played it sound asleep - I almost did.

Another personal story about London that sticks in my mind has to do with the music. Besides playing the clarinet I was in charge of producing all the scores and parts. That took years of course (and lots of other copyists worked on the music) but I did the last few months of intense work getting all the correct parts made up and shipped from LA to London in time. Then I got to London and finally the first rehearsal started. Kent Nagano (then an unknown conductor) decided to start the first rehearsal with Pedro's Dowry. Very early in Pedro is an exposed harp part - and the harpist didn't play it He stopped the rehearsal and asked her why she didn't play it She didn't have the correct part. The librarian of the orchestra had noticed that there was supposed to be a harp part and had given the harpist a copy of the piano part - a valiant effort but a foolish assumption that the parts would have any similarities. It turned out that I had made a mistake and omitted the harp part when the pile of music was shipped over. As they say "I felt a cold rush of shit in my veins" because of a missing part at the beginning of the first piece in the first rehearsal. I copied out a new harp part in the green room. Fortunately that was the only missing music for the entire project. Everything else went smoothly.

Orchestra seating is another subject. As soon as the project was confirmed Frank started redesigning the layout of the orchestra to achieve maximum recording separation. He made charts and graphs of who should sit where. Orchestra seating is very standardized and Frank was making radical changes. My advice against it was met with deaf ears. As soon as rehearsals started certain sections of the orchestra began complaining - each rehearsal had some different changes to the seating arrangement. It became a very chaotic issue which was complicated by the Barbican stage which wasn't really big enough for a 100 piece band. Changes were being made as late as the day of the concert. After the concert Frank gave up on the idea and had the recordings done in conventional setup. All in all, I think he did it backwards. The concert and rehearsals would have gone much better in standard setup while the recordings - in that huge room - could have been recorded in virtually any layout without much problem.

==

Frank started Mo 'n Herb's Vacation because I asked him to write a *solo* clarinet piece. He was dubious about the idea, but he did it - eventually it was called "Mo's Vacation" but he didn't like it so he added a simultaneous drum solo called "Herb's Vacation". He still wasn't happy so he added 3 more clarinets and 4 bassoons, bass and a few other audio events. (This is what John Steinmetz and I were recording at Frank's studio) I guess it was still not big enough so he added two more movements for huge orchestra - becoming the "Mo 'n Herb's Vacation" on the LSO album. He finally liked it at that stage, because it was only then that he expressed any thanks to me for asking him to write the piece. After the premiere in London I also got a big hug from him - a very unusual event!

(BTW - I paid him for that piece because I could have had a raise in my salary instead. I think I made the right choice.)

ORCHESTRA MUSIC

affz -->>

I had just purchased a record by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra doing"Arcana" by Edgar Varese as well as one other piece. I found it to be very similar to Zappa's "Bogus Pomp" -- any comments?

==

DO -->>

Franks admiration of Varese is well known - and his orchestra style showed it: big, sweeping gestures, blocks of sound, thick harmonies, lots of percussion, generally a lack of melody or historical musical forms. Bogus Pomp is probably not the best example of Franks debt to Varese - Pedro's Dowry is the first piece I'd think of. Bogus Pomp has a lot of "Zappa the Parodist" in it - a trait that definitely did not come from Varese. Someone trying to put Frank's abilities as an orchestral composer down would (and did) call his music "derivative Varese". I'd prefer to think of it as "evolutionary". If you can't tell the difference, you're not paying attention.

I'm not an expert on Varese recordings (or which was Frank's favorite), but I can recommend the Kent Nagano Complete Varese recordings with the French National Orchestra on Erato. I have heard rumors that the sessions with Ensemble Modern produced by Frank were somewhat 'unfocused' so I don't really know what to expect when they're released.

==

affz -->>

I think there are many Zappa oriented people who could thoroughly dig a program of his work coupled with say, Stravinsky or Ravel, even Beethoven. Symphony subscribers, on the other hand, are not likely to be any more bored or offended by Zappa than by a brain work by a Carter/Wuorinen/Babbitt or a Glass/Reich/Adams, or whatever style symphonies anoint as suitably heavy and important. They might like the funny titles, even.

==

DO -->>

I mostly do agree, but there's a long way to go before this happens. If I can draw some conclusions from the programming of my local orchestra (the Los Angeles Philharmonic), I'd say that orchestra audiences respond best to new music when they have a "great personality" to come out for, I mean a "star composer" - for some inexplicable reason in LA that usually means some old European guy who writes (in my opinion) ugly, incomprehensible music -Boulez and Lutoslawski get the greatest reverence here - since Wittold died the canonization has gone ballistic. Sure, a Zappa piece could replace Carter/Wourinen/Babbitt music any day on a concert - but he couldn't replace the hero composer image that seems so necessary to sell new music to the Brahms and Rachmaninoff fans. I disagree, however, about the funny titles (and I love Franks titles). I think the average non-Zappa-fan orchestra audience member will turn off to most of Frank's orchestra music just from hearing the title alone. Certainly they will after reading about the scenarios Frank put on them:

Here's some examples--

MO 'N HERB'S VACATION is about Herb Cohen spending money Frank thought wasn't Herbs. (Frank never actually used the word "theft" that I know of, but he was certainly writing music about getting shafted in shady business deals. How many big donors to the Philharmonic Society want to hear music about that?)

BOB IN DACRON & SAD JANE has sections like "Bob's Clothes" and "What Bob's Body Really Looks Like" "Bob Gets Drunk" "What Jane's Body Really Looks Like" A symphony concert with a piece about a pickup in a singles bar? Try again.

SINISTER FOOTWEAR has "Illegal Aliens Just Want To Go Home" as I remember and other stuff like that - Can you imagine that people who pay $45 or $50 per seat for a symphony concert would appreciate being reminded of Prop 187 during the concert? I don't wonder how *they* voted on 187. But I do wonder if their nannies have green cards.

BOGUS POMP (which in my opinion belongs on Symphonic Pops concerts everywhere) is about the bogus and pompous attitudes prevalent in the orchestra and how the individual members want to quit the group to become stars (the violist is singled out for the most abuse while the concertmaster gets the highest praise for the shoddiest work). This is a case of Frank taking dead aim at exactly the hero worship I was talking about above and skewering it unmercifully. And there's a lot of good 'attitude' about Hollywood in there as well.

And finally can you imagine what the Board of Directors of your average symphony would say when confronted with a piece for full orchestra called PENIS DIMENSION? (There is a full orchestra arrangement that's never been performed and I think it's going to be a long time before orchestra audiences are ready to hear the question "What's the size of your dork?".) If Frank didn't understand classical players, he also didn't understand classical audiences. That's fine because he wasn't writing for those audiences - he had his own audience. But the symphony orchestra scene is ultimately controlled by what the classical audience wants to buy tickets for and they don't want to spend their money being reminded of exactly the stuff they came there to forget. Lots of orchestras salivated over doing Zappa's music while he was alive - thinking they'd play down some easy charts for "rock band and orchestra" and fill the seats with paying customers who'd come back the next week to hear the B Minor Mass. And Frank just wanted to hear his music played well. Talk about your lose-lose situation.

==

affz -->>

Realistically though, it's going to be small, dedicated ensembles, like EM that are going to succeed in making really good performances of Zappa.

==

DO -->>

For the foreseeable future, yes that's true. (Sigh)

Frank really wanted to write for the symphony orchestra which he thought was the biggest and best instrument around (at least until he got his Synclavier). He did write smaller ensemble pieces but usually only when those ensembles came to him asking for music -Ensemble Modern, Ensemble Intercontemporain, Kronos Quartet, Aspen Quintet, the EAR Unit - but only EM really made it work.The real pity is that a lot of the full orchestra pieces - Pedro, Bogus Pomp, Bob and Jane, Envelopes, the first movement of Mo 'n Herb - existed in smaller versions before he expanded them for large ensemble, but those versions didn't get documented the way the big versions did: no final score or set of parts were ever made that I remember.

Those versions would be a lot easier to get decent performances of now. But someone would have to do a lot of work reconstructing them out of parts and sketches and scores piled away (who knows where at the moment) before they could be given to an ensemble. I think there's a Doctorate in Musicology and a position at a major School of Music waiting for the someone who sorts through that stack of music. Someday, maybe, but not soon.

And here's some tantalizing bits: I remember him saying to me once "There really *ought* to be a 'Music for Guitar and HIGH Budget Symphony Orchestra'." Also, at one point he had Steve Vai do some transcriptions of the bits of Greggery Peccary which had never been written down - so that a full orchestra live performance version could be made. Steve did the transcriptions - I saw them, he labeled it "The Peccary Project" - but it never went any farther.

ZAPPA AND OTHER COMPOSERS

BL -->>

You have mentioned the famous Varese quote Frank used that was talked about in Watson's Poodle Play.

==

DO -->>

Watson made a point in discussing Varese that I thought was fascinating and the ramifications of which have been bouncing around in my head since I read it. He said that Varese wrote in his manifesto: "Modern day composers refuse to die" but Frank quoted him in Freak Out (?) as saying "The modern day composer refuses to die". Plural versus singular.

Now you've got to remember that composers throughout this century have been bonding together into collectives for the purpose of getting their works performed - Varese did it, lots of others did it and I did it too: just after I got out of Cal Arts (where I got a graduate degree studying clarinet and composition) I was in a group of composers who founded a composers collective: the Independent Composers Association - known as the ICA. After a few years I became the President and I devoted a lot of time and attention to it - until I realized that being so involved in a composers organization was keeping me from doing any composing. ICA still exists, although it's kind of in a non-growth mode at the moment. Other composers collectives exist here in southern California and I know of them in other parts of the world as well. They seem to be useful but not completely successful method of letting a composer survive in a culture that gives no value to music composition.

Frank would never have been able to work in such a situation - he seemed to thrive on being totally alone while he wrote music or edited in the studio or with the Synclavier. Then he would come out of the studio and present his music to the performers. When given a performance opportunity - a commission, for example - he would expand his plans to include all possible resources (often going well beyond the capabilities of the commissioning organization to keep up). There was no room for sharing.

When I asked him to write a solo clarinet piece (the original Mo's Vacation) I premiered it at a small ICA concert at the Schoenberg Institute at USC. There were other composers pieces on the program, but we used the presence of a "Zappa" piece as a hook to get audience. Ultimately it sounded like just another new-music piece on just another new-music recital. It got a lousy review too.

Another time, Adam Stern and Richard Emmet (you know who Richard is, Adam worked briefly as a copyist for Frank and is now assistant conductor of the Seattle Symphony - and he won a grammy for best Classical music producer, all three of us were at Cal Arts simultaneously) - they arranged the Black Page for a small ensemble and played it at the beginning of another new music concert. Frank would never show up for such a thing but Gail actually did come that night. It's a common practice that short intense pieces like that get played twice on a concert - but when Adam turned to the audience and asked if people wanted to hear it again there was a small chorus of "No"s. I was very embarrassed because Gail was there.

The moral of all this? It would have been very easy to take a lot of Frank's music and make him sound like just another new music composer of no consequence. Maybe this means that his music is really no better than other composers? Maybe it means that no music can ever achieve greatness is a room filled by only a hundred people? I'm pretty sure that it means that Frank knew instinctively to stay away from the 'new music scene' and away from other composers. The misquoting of Varese's comment sums this up much better than my long discourse. (Sidenote about the letters ICA: while being President of the Independent Composers Association, I worked for Frank and received my checks from his production company -InterContinental Absurdities, Ltd: also know as ICA.

Thus, for a few years my entire life revolved around these two ICA's. There are lots of ICA's in the world: Institute of Contemporary Art (in Boston) and the International Carwash Association come immediately to mind. The first night I worked for Frank - my first day is another story for another time - I was driving home and I saw a van with the huge letters ICA on the side. Paranoia struck me - "what was this? Is he having me followed?". It turned out that Franks road manager (Al Santos?) lived in my neighborhood and drove the company "car' home from work. End of Sidenote)

==

BL -->>

Wow. That's quite a connection you've drawn. I read that manifesto also and noticed the misquote and didn't think twice about it. I will now. Frank definitely steered clear of the main stream socially acceptable norms of composition. Frank also knew he had an audience. He referred to us as a small underground following. He also always said that he composed music that amused himself and if somebody else liked it too, that was a bonus. I don't think he wanted mass appeal and composed music singularly for his own enjoyment. Perhaps it would have been different if he didn't have the luxury of performing Dinah Mo Humm once a night to keep his serious hobby afloat.

==

affz -->>

No flame intended, but was FZ really totally unexcited by Boulez' music? Comparing 'Naval Aviation in Art' (conducted by Boulez, admittedly) with Boulez' own 'Repons', I think I can hear certain similarities and I'd always assumed that Boulez was one of the composers that influenced FZ.

==

DO -->>

If the subject is "what 20th-century composers did Frank like?" - I think we can all agree Varese is top of the list in a class by himself. After that I remember Frank showing *real* excitement about Stravinsky, Nancarrow and Antheil at various times. Other people might want to add to that list. I personally would not put Boulez on such a list. I would not say Frank was "totally unexcited" - how 'bout "familiar and respectful"?

Naval Aviation is an interesting point. Once, when Frank had returned from Europe (possibly from the recording session of Perfect Stranger in Paris) he mentioned that someone had made a connection between Naval Aviation and one of Schoenberg's Five Orchestral Pieces - I don't remember which number it is but it has the "jumping fish" motive in it (you'll have to check with someone who's studied such things recently - but it's a well known music-history factoid.) The two pieces have theoretically similar textures - drawn out backgrounds with occasional sparse movements on top. Frank was totally mystified by this - he didn't hear the connection at all. Who knows what he would have said had you asked him to compare "Naval Aviation" and "Repons". BTW - the full title of Naval Aviation is "Naval Aviation in Art?" - note the question mark. Gail once showed me a clipping from Life (?) Magazine ca. 1945 which had inspired the title - it was an article about a gallery showing of artists during WWII who had used scenes from the U.S. Navy's aviation squadrons as themes for their artworks. One of the artists was the photographer Steiglitz as I remember. I think Frank found the juxtaposition of "naval aviation" and "art" strange enough for further comment - or maybe he just appropriated a bizarre title for a nameless piece of music. Franks notes on the record jacket say:

"NAVAL AVIATION IN ART? shows a sailor-artist, standing before his easel, squinting through a porthole for inspiration, while wiser men sleep in hammocks all around him."

==

affz -->>

The similarities I detect in Repons actually fit very well with the description you give, so maybe Zappa had just absorbed the idioms of modern orchestral music to such a degree that he could use some of the same devices employed by Schoenberg or Boulez without consciously trying to mimican specific piece.

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DO -->>

I think he tended to stop doing something if he thought he was following someone else's rules or example. He had no trouble making up new rules for each situation. And mutating them so fast no one else could hope to keep up. Gail told me once that Frank had expressed this philosophy: "Always give them what they don't expect". I think that fits all his music. I betcha that if Frank had known Repons or the Schoenberg Orchestral Piece when he wrote Naval Aviation, NAIA? would have been a completely different piece. We can point out similarities between his music and other well-known composers from here to eternity, and we can speculate on how familiar Frank was with their music - but I'm unwilling to award the "Was Influenced By" title to anyone but the most obvious choices. Varese anyone?

==

While I was working for Frank a recording of the music of George Antheil performed by the Netherlands Wind Ensemble was released - making many people aware for the first time how insanely great his early works are. These include the Ballet Mechanique (for percussion, pianos, airplane propeller, various buzzers etc), a Jazz Symphony and several sonatas for violin and piano. Frank liked Antheil's music too. Once, in a discussion with Frank and someone else, I mentioned that I thought the Jazz Symphony was the best piece on the album. Frank disagreed and chose one of the violin sonatas as his favorite (I believe it was the one with the drum bit at the end). I was surprised by this but also pleased that he chose a small-scale chamber work instead of a large, colorful orchestra piece. (I've spent a lot of my life playing chamber music and regretted that Frank showed so little interest in small acoustic instrumental pieces. At that time he was writing many large, colorful orchestra pieces. I had assumed - wrongly - that he'd be more interested in Antheil's orchestra work.)

Another time: I was working on something at the house and Frank was nearby. I was whistling while I worked - as I often do - not really aware of what the tune was. Frank said "Oh, Antheil's greatest hits." and I realized that I was whistling the Ballet Mechanique theme. Highly recommended. I wonder if that album has been reissued on CD.

==

Other artists that I can remember Frank showing interest and excitement about: Stravinsky has already been mentioned - but I direct your attention to L'Histoire du Soldat, a chamber work for small ensemble and narrators. Frank did one of the narration parts at least once that I know of (at the Hollywood Bowl with LA Phil players). I'd say Frank had more interest in early Stravinsky (Firebird, Rite of Spring etc) than middle (neo-classic) or late (serial) Stravinsky. Also, Conlon Nancarrow - the player piano guy from Mexico City.

It's a short list but I'm sure that I'm allowing my own personal attitudes to filter it somewhat: What do I think of Boulez? (What follows is **my** own personal opinion only) Boulez as a composer: his music strikes me as old-fashioned, atonal neo-impressionism - often tending to meander about for far longer than I care to listen. Boulez as a conductor: too precise, uninterpretive, un-creative - often(to my ears) taking great music and making it seem like so many dots on a page. Boulez as cultural icon: how did this guy ever get to be the epitome of serious musical expression? Classical music is in a bad way, mate.

Frank held a high opinion of Boulez, as I remember, although I don't think he could be said to have been "Excited" about Pierre's music. But since Frank wanted the players to play exactly what he had written, there was a certain meeting of the minds between them as to "the composer is always right".

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affz -->>

What lets FZ's orchestral music off the hook of being "old-fashioned, atonal neo-impressionism", apart from the disclaimer that it's for"entertainment purposes only..."?

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DO -->>

Nothing - except the totally subjective responses of each of our ears and brains. If you wanted to put Franks music down you might well call it "old-fashioned atonal etc." - it's gotten much worse reviews from classical critics. I do believe that Boulez lives much more consciously in the shadow of the great French composers of the last 100 years - Debussy, Messiaen for example - than Frank lived in the shadow of Varese.

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BL -->>

What about John Cage? What do you think about his influence on Frank? I've seen some amazing Cage documentaries and the vision he had reminds me of Zappa's.

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DO -->>

I have had about all the Cage documentaries I can deal with for one lifetime - his music was a very important catalyst for me in my early years, but I sort of saw through it when I got older (and wiser?). I tend to have more interest in Cage's early works (pre- 1960) than in the later stuff. The Imaginary Landscape for radios was something I had organized a performance of - like a few other things from the same period. I can't think of **anything** having less to do with the music of Frank Zappa than the music of John Cage.

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BL -->>

What/how do you think about the Poodle book? (The Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play by Ben Watson)

==

DO -->>

I've got the book now and am about 100 pages into it - it's achieved the ultimate low for my reading list: I keep it in the bathroom and read a few pages each time I take a shit. Some of the information is very interesting - remember that I don't know all that much about large periods of Frank's career, so reading about his early life and early work is news to me.

I suppose it's inevitable that Frank would be subjected to such an analytical history as this -but I was really depressed to discover that it had been completed even before he died. He described what he did as 'entertainment' and rejected every attempt to ascribe higher meaning to it that I was aware of. I was once at the house waiting for him to finish a phone interview and heard him use the phrase "I just like to write this stuff and stick it in my ear." I remember this vividly because such an attitude absolved him of having a higher purpose that us "serious" composers aspired to. In other words, he did what he did and we (the listeners) were supposed to have a good time with it.

Of course it all has some meaning, but I'd say it's too soon by far to spend much effort figuring out what that meaning really is (much less trying to express it in big books). On some level Frank and his music is still living in our minds and memories - we should strive to keep it that way. His music will survive of its own accord if it has any real content. It will turn into rigid 'classical' music soon enough and then let the musicologists and the Marxists write their revisionism. We still have a chance to enjoy this music, to celebrate the mystery of a natural creative artist - Watson is 50 years too early in my opinion.

Moreover - taking a Marxist perspective of Frank is scary and revisionist. Frank was a capitalist out to make a living by doing what was interesting to him and what he was good at. His music was (still is) a family business fighting against musical megaliths. The 'commodification of art' did not bother Frank. He worried more about keeping the inventory well stocked, not about the musicological underpinnings and cultural attitudes that colored other peoples attitudes about it.

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BL -->>

David had this to say in response to a personal response regarding the Boulez thread:

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DO -->>

Stockhausen and Boulez were mutually influential I believe. I'd have to think that Stockhausen was no more of an influence on Frank than Boulez was. Once Frank mentioned to me "I have written serial music" - but I never did figure out what music of his he was referring to and I never saw him compose using any techniques I would have called serial. I only remember talking to Frank about Stockhausen's music twice - both times after I heard performances of Stockhausen pieces and reported on them to Frank. He was curious but didn't seem particularly impressed or overly interested in either.

Of course, if someone could actually prove to me that Frank was at Darmstadt in the 50's (which I believe has about as much truth as the "he-ate-shit-on-stage" rumor), I have to reconsider my opinions about all of this.

==

BL -->>

He also always said that he composed music that amused himself and if somebody else liked it too, that was a bonus. I don't think he wanted mass appeal and composed music singularly for his own enjoyment. Perhaps it would have been different if he didn't have the luxury of performing Dinah Mo Humm once a night to keep his serious hobby afloat. Additional thoughts?

==

DO -->>

The LSO session was largely paid for by Valley Girl profits. At one point he was working on some album (don't remember which) and I heard him say to the engineer "We've got to get this to sound right. I don't want to put out another album that I don't like" Yes, I guess he had his own ears in mind all the time. Another time I heard him say which album was his favorite. Don't get your hopes up -- I can't remember which one he said.

SYNCLAVIER

affz -->> re: "Francesco Zappa".

I sometimes get the feeling FZ was operating the Synclavier with one hand and holding its instruction manual in the other, all the while recording the outcome. Or perhaps that's what he meant to do all the time?

==

DO -->>

Once the original "Francesco" trios were entered into the Synclavier, Frank's only creative input was deciding on which sounds would go with which musical lines. I never did understand what he was trying to do with it, but he picked some very rich synthetic sounds that served to obscure the 18th century music. Hmmm - maybe *that was* what he was trying to do. The music of Francesco Zappa was not what anyone would call inspired writing (sort of behind the times even then) - and it certainly wasn't the kind of thing Frank liked to listen to. In comparison to any other album I ever saw Frank working on, Francesco Zappa was tossed off super quickly - and maybe Frank was testing the limits of the Synclavier. The album, like Francesco himself, disappeared almost without trace. But how many composers discover an eponymously named composer who lived two-hundred years earlier than them? I'm sure glad he did something to honor the co-incidence.

If you're willing to ascribe a metaphysical significance to it (which Frank would haved rejected), Francesco Zappa does a lot to explain why Frank Zappa was such a unique musician. On the other hand, the album Francesco Zappa *isn't* very interesting, is it?

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affz -->>

I went back and read the passage about you in Viva Zappa and it goes pretty much like this: "FZ has two permanently salaried electricians, David Ocker and David DeFuria, who help program the Synclavier."

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DO -->>

Steve DeFuria - I wonder what became of him. He taught me a lot about the Synclavier - and he actually wrote software that we used. In fact, I got switched over from copying to Synclavier because Steve really wasn't available for as much work as Frank wanted done. Steve wrote a column in Keyboard magazine after that for a while.

affz -->>

I have always been blown away by this Varese quote from the New York Times 6 December 1936 (section 2 page 7) - "I am sure that the time will come when the composer, after he has graphically realized his score, will see this score automatically put on a machine that will faithfully transmit the musical content to the listener." Sounds like a vision of the Synclavier to me. I love the fact that Frank was able to realize Varese's vision in that regard.

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DO -->>

Right - I think about this as I listen to CPIII - Frank always wanted a way of hearing his music just as he intended it and he FINALLY got that. Then he died. It's so sad but also wonderful that he had completed the cycle and fulfilled the dream. Had he lived on we might have seen great changes in him and his music - possibly he would have imagined and reached new heights. Possibly not - we'll never know.

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BL -->>

Any more memories of the Francesco project?

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DO -->>

A few years before I quit working for Frank a new edition of Groves Encyclopedia of Music and Musicians (which may actually have a slightly different name) was published. I saw it in the Theodore Front music store in LA and thought I'd check to see if Frank had gotten a listing. He hadn't but in his place was a listing about Francesco Zappa - unknown Italian cellist and composer. After briefly considering and rejecting the obvious explanation (that the listing was some sort of joke) I figured I'd have to get some of Francesco's music to show Frank. So I decided not to mention it to him till I had some music.

Not long after this he went on tour in Europe. When he returned he had been told by someone about the Francesco listing and he was quite excited by the notion that a musician with essentially the same name had exsisted 200 years earlier. Meanwhile, all I had done was find a person to tell me how to get the music - this was "Jim Lee who used RISM to point using the right direction" - Jim was a musician who did early music arrangements. I met him at Judy Green Music in Hollywood (where all the Zappa scores etc got reproduced - still do, actually) and RISM stands for four long German words which are books of lists of musty old scores in musty old libraries all over the world.

Franks secretary wrote away for xeroxes of some of the scores in US libraries and we soon had more trio sonatas that we could deal with. The music was hand copied manuscripts obviously from Francesco's own period - individual parts, not scores. They were hard to read - I don't really remember what they looked like but I knew enough about 18th century notation to enter them into the Synclavier. The music would not be readable by an average musician today. Frank set me to work on this and I did the most authentic job I could with them. Using genuine string-like synth sounds, adding crescendos and diminuendos. Frank liked playing them for anyone who came into the studio.

When it came to recording them the sound was far too staid and old-fashioned for Frank. He started substituting the most uproarious synthesizer sounds then available (this was before sampling) onto the three parts (two violin and one cello) - instantly obscuring all the nuances I'd added and blurring much of what Francesco himself had written. Some of the combinations he tried in the studio were even more outlandish than what ended up on the record. He must have liked what he came up with however.

Once I was in the studio while Frank was meeting with the designers of the album cover -two women. One of them started talking about reincarnation and how exciting it must be for "Frank Zappa" to discover "Francesco Zappa" who had such a similar career. Frank did not seem to want to entertain such metaphysical notions - he started twisting his neck and rolling his eyes. Everyone laughed and Frank avoided giving the notion any credence.

As the album was going into final production he asked me to write liner notes - this was probably the most original piece of creative work I ever did for Frank - every "Fact" in the liner notes is correct. Francesco did live in all those places and dedicate those trios twice (we had the same music manuscripts from two different sources with different dedications). The attitude about Francesco that I tried to convey was much more akin to FRANK Zappa's attitude than Francesco himself - actually I knew nothing of Francesco's attitude. It's also true that the steam-powered record player was never a commercial success (steam power would have been very high-tech during Francesco's lifetime) - hmm, I guess I made up the part about coal-burning cassettes - and maybe a few other obvious lies. When I finished the program notes Frank edited them somewhat (making improvements for the better - I can no longer remember which bits he edited) but most of it is my writing.

FRANK ZAPPA - THE PERSON

affz -->>

Anyway, yeah, I understand that you as a symphony member might have a different perspective on his music, but you also knew him personally, and that is sort of what is interesting to me. I'd really just like to know what his demeanor offstage was like...I mean, was your relationship with Frank totally professional?

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DO -->>

First, I'm not a symphony player - never was in an orchestra more than a couple concerts post college. I've played lots of chamber music though.

About his offstage demeanor - I remember when I first worked for him I was impressed that he was different than I expected him to be. Much less "crazy". I wasn't a Zappa fan before I went to work with him, but I'd heard 3 or 4 albums and heard a few stories. I asked him early on how he dealt with the fact that he was nothing like his public image and he testily replied that that didn't matter.

Yes, my relationship with him was totally professional. And most of my time with him I actually thought of him as being quite nice. But remember, he was my boss - and nobody likes their boss all the time. Also remember, that he ran a family business - a small one by comparison - but he's the only real "boss" I've ever had. Since then I've been freelancing and now I have "clients" - I think one of the reasons I left his employ was that I couldn't deal with the stress of knowing I could be fired at any time. Now, if I lose one client at least I have the others to fall back on. Also, I had proven that I could work for Frank Zappa - I wasn't a member of the family and there was no real future in the job for me (aside from doing the same things over and over).

affz -->>

You say you kept in touch with him after you left.... was this in a consultation type situation, or did he call to say hello?

DO -->>

He never called me - except once (more on that later) - if you wanted to be in touch with Frank you called him. I could usually get through the secretary if he was available and we'd usually have a phone conversation. Usually such phone conversations turned into an invitation to come over to his studio - where there would be more talk and he would play tapes of works in progress. I think he did that with certain people to get reactions.

I limited myself to calling Frank about once a year after I left his employment. I tried to pick times when I had lots of work but when I wasn't really under deadline so I would have some time to hang out. I didn't want to go over there when I was looking for work because I didn't really want to ask him for work - that would have meant going on salary again. Usually Frank would make it clear that I was welcome to call or come over - it was my idea to limit the visits to once a year or so. After a few years I had plenty of work but I still limited my "hits" of Frank. Once I ended up sitting in the studio with him for about 3 hours with NO ONE else around -it was very unusual to be there when things were so quiet. We talked about lots of stuff -music and politics mostly. I'd say we talked as equals - I wasn't afraid to tell him what I thought about things and we didn't always agree. If you knew him - even for a short while -you couldn't help but be aware what an incredibly intelligent man he was. Don't ask what we talked about - I don't really remember. Just that I was talking alone with him for a long while.

I've heard people who obviously knew Frank a lot less than I did describe themselves in public as his "friend". I am somewhat reticent to describe myself that way - although I'm sure if I did no one could complain. (He apparently thought of me as a friend - see the discussion of While You Were Art - below) Maybe I am reticent because I was an employee for so long. Many former employees left in various forms of disgrace or disagreement and couldn't have called/visited him like I did. I guess you can call it what you will.

The one phone call I got from Frank was at the beginning of the Yellow Shark project. I was invited over to meet people from Ensemble Modern and I took samples of my computer music engraving to show them. Frank wanted me hired as musical assistant and the EM people were willing to do that. There were some problems getting a contract signed between me and EM - but I started work and made it through the initial rehearsals. Then it was clear that I couldn't come to an agreement (purely monetary) with EM and I was replaced by Ali Askin. I guess if I had kept the job I'd have been one of the piano people on CPIII maybe instead of Ali. It's okay, though. I had my time with Frank. Working with him was like standing next to a whirlwind. Things were always going on. I did it for 7 years - enough was enough.

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affz -->>

BTW, I am making the assumption that you are/were a member of the LA Philharmonic...sorry. well, just the fact that you did work for Frank speaks volumes about your proficiency in your field. one thing I have gathered is that he had little tolerance for fools.

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DO -->>

No relationship with the Philharmonic at all - I'm just another freelance musician from LA - and I no longer play the clarinet (recent decision). I'm earning my living doing only computer music engraving. My current work is mostly for the composer John Adams (Nixon in China, Death of Klinghoffer are his two operas) and the composer William Kraft (now a professor, formerly timpanist, composer and conductor in that very same LA Phil). There's lots of music in LA beyond the Philharmonic. It may be an 800 pound gorilla - but there are plenty of 100 and 200 pound gorillas here too.

You're right, Frank didn't tolerate fools. When I quit from my 7 years with him, I talked with Bob Rice who replaced me as Synclavier operator. I told Bob "You can say anything to Frank, but make sure it's true or you'll get found out. And don't tell him you can doing anything unless you can actually deliver on it." Later I talked to Bob again (when he was on his way out) and he reminded me of that advice and that it had been very accurate.

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affz -->>

I had read a couple of interviews with Ruth Underwood around the time of Frank Zappa's death regarding how she was flattered that Frank seemed to understand what her capabilities were and would compose things for her to do that, although initially challenging, she felt were tailored to the way she played. Did you feel the same way about "Mo 'n' Herb's Vacation"?

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DO -->>

ABSOLUTELY!!!! I feel the same way about my entire time with Frank. He had a sixth sense about what he could ask people to do that they didn't think themselves capable of - and be right about it.

Basically, when he hired me to copy music he had seen some of my sample work - but he told me to do the best job I was capable of. There was no "hurry up this is costing too much" - or "can't you do it quicker". He wanted the best work possible. As a result I learned (taught myself) how to be a exceptionally good copyist - after I left Frank those same qualities have helped me get and keep!! my current clients.

As for performance stuff - he music was super-challenging - especially in the realm of rhythms and cross-rhythms. When I started with him I had some idea of how to play them. He got me playing things I never could have imagined previously. As for Mo 'n Herb - just thinking about it now - it's kind of frightening: I actually played a solo from memory with a professional symphony orchestra. I'd played a couple concertos in college. Never had played ANYTHING from memory before that day. Those minutes in the Barbican were the high point of my life - no question about it (I say that line a lot!).

I remember realizing that this quality of being able to exploit peoples talents worked on himself too. Some things Frank was not very good at - for example, playing written music on his guitar - and he managed to always put himself in positions where he didn't have to do that. Other people did it for him. Later, the Synclavier did it for him.

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affz -->>

And do you think, before the Synclavier, Frank normally composed in this manner or altered his compositions to fit his band? (And I don't mean a change an arrangement from reggae to metal; more like bits and pieces rearranged, added or deleted ...).

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DO -->>

Apparently all throughout his career - Frank was ready and willing to reuse anything he had composed previously. That's why there are so many different versions of the same tunes. Why little melodies pop up in totally different contexts. Once I remember I was sorting through a pile of music and found an unmarked piece of manuscript - "What's this?" I asked (Sorry I don't remember what it was - something from a very early album). It was something he hadn't seen in years. He immediately took it into the studio and started working with it as if he had just composed it that morning.

Ooops - I think I'm not answering your question ... here's another try. He always pushed the materials at hand to their limits. These things might be a Synclavier worth a king's ransom, the members of the band, some little electronic gizmo for altering guitar sound, a piece of manuscript paper, a drum box - anything. I guess I tend to think that everything (people or machines) he worked with he worked the same way - he pushed and pushed till he got something that he was excited about. Pretty amazing, huh?

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affz -->> -->>

David said: He always pushed the materials at hand to their limits. These things might be a Synclavier worth a king's ransom, the members of the band, ...

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affz -->>

Yeah, but how many people snapped by being pushed to their limit and being kep near that limit ?

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DO -->>

A lot, I'd think. I survived for so long because most of my work was done at home on my own schedule - all the copyists provided their own work space at home. The one year I actually worked directly with Frank in the studio was my last year and I craved working at home on my own again. Also, I was never on tour with him and never had to give my entire life over to working for Frank. I don't believe I could have survived that for very long. Of course, I also never had the chance to find out.

Of course my life was best when he was on tour and he'd left me in LA with some large project to finish - score or parts or something.

When he was in town, during the 6 years I was working for him as a copyist I woul