Tod Amon Apr 30 1992, 12:51 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: t...@cs.washington.edu (Tod Amon) - Find messages by this author Date: Thu, 30 Apr 92 19:51:08 GMT Local: Thurs, Apr 30 1992 12:51 pm Subject: Code of conduct on ICS? Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse ICS is not over the board. Moves take a minimum of a few seconds. As result, tempers can rise. Here are some of the problems I've seen, two situations: 1) I take a win on time (up 2 minutes) while down about 6 points. My opponent accuses me of not playing a game and is pissed (incidently, I offered a draw 5 times). My last few moves were indeed ridiculous and were designed merely to take time of the opposing clock. 2) My opponent and I are in a midgame, I'm up 5 points, we each have exactly 46 seconds left. I offer a draw. My opponent declines (now I'm pissed) and wins on time (he has 3sec when I run out). He was using xics, I wasn't. The last 20 moves were random. We each know that we can't achieve mate in 46 seconds. Now I'm really pissed. I'm wondering if we could reach consensus on "reasonable conduct" for the game given the differences. Here is the set of rules I have devised for myself. I'm certainly open to change. My philosophy: If I beat you on time, because I've made clever moves and made you think, but you've beat me on the board (you found the good responses) then I think a draw is called for. I've offered draws when I've clearly "won" in that my opponent has 5 seconds and I have 2 minutes. Occassionally, I'll take a win if I'm *way* up on time (say over 4-5 minutes) but still down on material, the feeling being that there is an upper bound. Also, I occasionally will not offer the draw at 5 seconds, but instead at 1 minute. The point being that at 1 minute left, If I'm up a lot on time, but down a lot on material, my opponent is gambling that they can mate me in enough time. It doesn't seem completely fair to give them all of the opportunity to mate me with none of the risk (e.g. they can give it a try, but if they fail, I feel I deserve the win for hanging on so well). Summary: there are two components to the game, the clock and the board, neither is currently held to be of paramount importance. Of course, this is exactly what Fischer's clock is trying to change. Put the emphasis back on the game by allowing a minimum amount of time for every move. Perhaps a new server could try this out, but that hasn't happened yet... I feel that a draw should be agreed upon if one person is up on material/position, the other is up on time. What do other people feel about this? -todzo Aaron Putnam Apr 30 1992, 3:35 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: d...@eaststar.utah.edu (Aaron Putnam) - Find messages by this author Date: 30 Apr 92 22:35:21 GMT Local: Thurs, Apr 30 1992 3:35 pm Subject: Re: Code of conduct on ICS? Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article <1992Apr30.195108.19...@beaver.cs.washington.edu> t...@cs.washington.edu (Tod Amon) writes: >[Stuff deleted] >[...] Summary: there are two components >to the game, the clock and the board, neither is currently held to be of >paramount importance. Of course, this is exactly what Fischer's clock is >trying to change. Put the emphasis back on the game by allowing a minimum >amount of time for every move. Perhaps a new server could try this out, but >that hasn't happened yet... I've been meaning to install a fischer-clock timing option on eaststar, but I'm unclear on a few points: Is doing so a copyright infringement of some sort? I don't think so, since he patented the mechanism itself rather than the idea, but I don't want to wake up to a law suit some day. Also, if someone could mail me the exact details on what it should do, that would be great. (My understanding is that the game has a time limit for each side, ala normal clocks, and that you can set a move-timer which gives you x number of seconds each move, before starting to take time off the main clock). Is this accurate? Is there more to it? Thanks. -Desmodus Sun-Yui Ng Apr 30 1992, 5:55 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: n...@mist.CS.ORST.EDU (Sun-Yui Ng) - Find messages by this author Date: 1 May 92 00:55:36 GMT Local: Thurs, Apr 30 1992 5:55 pm Subject: Re: Code of conduct on ICS? Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - In article <1992Apr30.223521.14...@fcom.cc.utah.edu> d...@eaststar.utah.edu (Aaron Putnam) writes: >In article <1992Apr30.195108.19...@beaver.cs.washington.edu> t...@cs.washington.edu (Tod Amon) writes: >>[Stuff deleted] >>[...] Summary: there are two components >>to the game, the clock and the board, neither is currently held to be of >>paramount importance. Of course, this is exactly what Fischer's clock is >>trying to change. Put the emphasis back on the game by allowing a minimum >>amount of time for every move. Perhaps a new server could try this out, but >>that hasn't happened yet... >I've been meaning to install a fischer-clock timing option on eaststar, but >I'm unclear on a few points: Is doing so a copyright infringement of some >sort? I don't think so, since he patented the mechanism itself rather than >the idea, but I don't want to wake up to a law suit some day. >Also, if someone could mail me the exact details on what it should do, >that would be great. (My understanding is that the game has a time limit >for each side, ala normal clocks, and that you can set a move-timer which >gives you x number of seconds each move, before starting to take time off >the main clock). Is this accurate? Is there more to it? Thanks. > -Desmodus I like todzo's idea and that is what I usually do. However, I doubt that it will be enforcable. Trying to umplement Fischer's clock would be good and should be simple to change. The x-move time only matters when a player runs out of time. At least that is what I think it is. Just wanted to clarify. If this happens, my rating will go down even more because I win about 80% of my games on time and in most of them I'm lost :-) But I still would prefer the siwtch to Fischer's clock. This will force me to play better earlier. -chessnut . Ron Birnbaum May 1 1992, 7:15 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: r...@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum) - Find messages by this author Date: Fri, 1 May 1992 14:15:25 GMT Local: Fri, May 1 1992 7:15 am Subject: Re: Code of conduct on ICS? Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article <1992Apr30.223521.14...@fcom.cc.utah.edu>, d...@eaststar.utah.edu (Aaron Putnam) writes: Gee Aaron, I don't know if you need a Fischer-like clock - it still won't change some things - like losing on time via net delay. Anyway, I'd like the source changed so the system knows what a drawn game is! If no mating material exists - the game should be declared drawn! And when one's opponent loses a connection, one must be up 6 points (that's a LOT) to claim a win. I think that should be lowered to 3 points - a piece is plenty! Also, if a player has lost time due to netlag (or when the rating server goes down - this problem has been seen quite a bit in recent days), you should be able to add time, with your opponent's approval, back! So a 'add n' command would ask your opponent if you can add 'n' seconds back to your clock, since you lost that much due to net delay. -Ron Michael Moore May 1 1992, 8:51 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: mmoore%peruvian.utah....@cs.utah.edu (Michael Moore) - Find messages by this author Date: 1 May 92 09:51:11 MDT Local: Fri, May 1 1992 8:51 am Subject: Re: Code of conduct on ICS? Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article <1992May1.141525.27...@osf.org> r...@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum) writes: > Also, if a player has lost time due >to netlag (or when the rating server goes down - this problem has been seen >quite a bit in recent days), you should be able to add time, with your >opponent's approval, back! So a 'add n' command would ask your opponent if >you can add 'n' seconds back to your clock, since you lost that much due to >net delay. >-Ron This leads to a lot of opportunity for argument, of which there is enough already. The real solution is to write a simple client for ICS that acts just like telnet but timestamps its moves. This still allows cheating if a player decided to go in and change the manner in which the client timestamps its moves, but it seems the ideal solution aside from that. And if worse comes to worse you can always just distribute binary files (say for sun4, hp300, IBM RS/6000, and dec). -Michael +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +Michael D. Moore Office : (801) 582-5847x4721 Home : (801)359-6552 + +Software Q&A Programmer Evans & Sutherland mmo...@dsd.es.com + +Student University of Utah mmo...@peruvian.utah.edu+ Andrew Tannenbaum May 1 1992, 11:09 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: t...@ima.isc.com (Andrew Tannenbaum) - Find messages by this author Date: 1 May 92 18:09:50 GMT Local: Fri, May 1 1992 11:09 am Subject: Re: Code of conduct on ICS? Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse Here's a radical idea. If you have time trouble on ICS, I would suggest asking for more time to your clock to start with! If you are going to take an extra five seconds per move due to delays from the net or whatever, then, assuming a 60 move game, ask for five extra minutes! I've had people ask me to play game in three or game in five on the ICS. This is insane. There are delays induced by ICS and the net. If you're not playing with xics, it's close to impossible to even type in the moves that fast, or to decipher the ascii board. It's always possible that there might be other people around who see you at your keyboard and they are used to coming to consult with you who don't realize that you're engaged in a death match. Having a little slack time to deal with them can be helpful. (This much slack might take the fun out of blitz, though). People shout on the ICS about net lag, etc, but I have no compassion. You can't expect to make a move per second like if you can just push a pawn and pop the clock. Ask for the extra time. (Not a macho solution, I realize.) If you feel that your opponent is trying to weasel a time win out of a dead draw, you can save the game and have it adjudicated, can't you? I agree that xics is a major advantage over the ICS keyboard interface, I don't know what you can do to even that out. trb annan May 1 1992, 12:01 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: a...@vax.oxford.ac.uk - Find messages by this author Date: 1 May 92 19:01:21 GMT Local: Fri, May 1 1992 12:01 pm Subject: Re: Code of conduct on ICS? Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article <1992May1.141525.27...@osf.org>, r...@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum) writes: > So a 'add n' command would ask your opponent if you can add 'n' > seconds back to your clock, since you lost that much due to net delay. > -Ron You all may or may not realise that the similar Go server has an "add n" command, which adds time to your opponent's clock only. And a take back option for typos. It all seems to work rather well, but the main difference is that the games are played in a more friendly spirit because there are no rating points at stake. On the chess server there are too many players who only seem interested in getting as high a rating as possible by any means. I've even been challenged to 11 min games because my standard rating was above my blitz rating! (Yes, "Prabhu", I mean you!). While this sort of attitude prevails, it will be hard to eliminate the effect of net lag, I think. -- James Annan. [--------------------------------------] [ "The only good Tory is a lavatory" ] [--------------------------------------] Joseph Albert May 2 1992, 11:41 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: alb...@sevenlayer.cs.wisc.edu (Joseph Albert) - Find messages by this author Date: 2 May 92 18:41:39 GMT Local: Sat, May 2 1992 11:41 am Subject: Re: Code of conduct on ICS? Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article <1992Apr30.195108.19...@beaver.cs.washington.edu> t...@cs.washington.edu (Tod Amon) writes: >ICS is not over the board. Moves take a minimum of a few seconds. >As result, tempers can rise. >What do other people feel about this? I feel that you are taking it way too seriously. ICS games are not for money, and ICS ratings are pretty meaningless in the grander scheme of things. ICS is a great tool for having the opportunity to play other chess players around the country and the world. I have enjoyed losing some nicely constructed games to people as far away as Scandinavia. Lighten up. Joseph Albert alb...@cs.wisc.edu Bala SWAMINATHAN May 3 1992, 8:37 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: b...@wucs1.wustl.edu (Bala SWAMINATHAN) - Find messages by this author Date: Mon, 4 May 1992 03:37:28 GMT Local: Sun, May 3 1992 8:37 pm Subject: Re: Code of conduct on ICS? Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse Recently in one of my games (Blitz game in 10) I offerred a draw to my opponent (I do not want to name him/her, but I guess that will know if s/he happen to read this) when my opponent was having just 30 seconds and I (about 9 minutes). The position was still complicated (middle game) and s/he had a pawn up. My opponent claimed that s/he lost 7 minutes in net lag. Well I had this much to say: s/he actually had less than 7 minutes when it was his/her move. We finally adnourned the game, at his/her insistence, since I did not want to steal the point. Oh well, even if you were trying to be fair.... Cheers S_Bala Mika Kukkonen May 4 1992, 12:15 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: mkukk...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Mika Kukkonen) - Find messages by this author Date: 4 May 92 07:15:45 GMT Local: Mon, May 4 1992 12:15 am Subject: Re: Code of conduct on ICS? Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In <1992May4.033728.8...@wuecl.wustl.edu> b...@wucs1.wustl.edu (Bala SWAMINATHAN) writes: >Recently in one of my games (Blitz game in 10) I offerred a draw to >my opponent (I do not want to name him/her, but I guess that will know >if s/he happen to read this) when my opponent was having just 30 seconds Well, being the opponent in question I feel forced to reply on this! >and I (about 9 minutes). The position was still complicated (middle game) >and s/he had a pawn up. And won position, see below. >My opponent claimed that s/he lost 7 minutes in net lag. Well I had this much >to say: s/he actually had less than 7 minutes when it was his/her move. >We finally adnourned the game, at his/her insistence, since I did not want >to steal the point. I think I have to apologize few opponents I have recently played (not including bala!). It seems that there is serious trouble in Finlands connection with Europe (and through that to USA), which result in 5 - 10 mins connection losses. I have localized this (through ping) at our gateway server, and complained about it. But there is not much I can do. And I am not only one, Blunder (being a Finn also) is having same problems. (see his post). The other thing I want to note, that being in Finland means that I lose (depending if I am at home 2400 bps or at university) about 3-5 sec per move AUTOMATICALLY. But that it my problem only, of course. >Oh well, even if you were trying to be fair.... >Cheers >S_Bala So, this is what I retrieved from eaststar few mins ago: (Yes, adjourned games are NOT deleted!) I have added a total time used. Mika vs. bala, a game in 15 move # White time total Black time total -------------------------------------------------------- 1 P/c2-c4 (0:10) 0:10 N/g8-f6 (0:08) 0:08 2 N/b1-c3 (0:03) 0:13 P/e7-e6 (0:04) 0:12 3 P/e2-e4 (0:03) 0:16 N/b8-c6 (0:06) 0:18 4 P/d2-d4 (0:05) 0:21 P/d7-d6 (0:07) 0:25 5 N/g1-f3 (0:06) 0:27 B/f8-e7 (0:07) 0:32 6 B/f1-d3 (0:04) 0:31 o-o (0:03) 0:35 7 o-o (0:16) 0:47 P/e6-e5 (0:06) 0:41 8 P/d4-d5 (0:40) 1:27 N/c6-b4 (0:26) 1:07 9 P/a2-a3 (0:04) 1:31 N/b4-d3 (0:03) 1:10 10 Q/d1-d3 (0:03) 1:34 P/c7-c6 (0:03) 1:13 11 P/h2-h3 (0:20) 1:54 N/f6-h5 (0:10) 1:23 12 B/c1-e3 (0:07) 2:01 P/f7-f5 (0:06) 1:29 13 Q/d3-e2 (0:12) 2:13 P/f5-f4 (0:05) 1:34 14 B/e3-d2 (0:08) 2:21 R/f8-f6 (0:13) 1:47 15 N/f3-e5 (0:08) 2:29 P/d6-e5 (1:13) 3:00 16 Q/e2-h5 (0:05) 2:34 R/f6-g6 (0:02) 3:02 17 K/g1-h2 (0:33) 3:07 B/e7-d6 (0:29) 3:31 18 P/b2-b4 (0:23) 3:30 R/g6-g5 (0:11) 3:42 19 Q/h5-f3 (0:06) 3:36 P/c6-d5 (0:12) 3:54 20 P/c4-d5 (0:04) 3:40 P/a7-a6 (0:05) 3:59 21 N/c3-a4 (0:14) 3:54 B/c8-d7 (0:04) 4:03 22 N/a4-c5 (0:04) 3:58 Q/d8-e7 (0:09) 4:12 23 R/a1-c1 (0:10) 4:08 B/d7-b5 (0:19) 4:31 24 R/f1-e1 (0:11) 4:19 B/b5-d7 (0:08) 4:39 25 N/c5-b7 (0:13) 4:32 B/d7-g4 (0:08) 4:47 26 P/h3-g4 (0:13) 4:45 Q/e7-b7 (0:02) 4:49 27 R/c1-c6 (0:26) 5:11 Q/b7-d7 (0:10) 4:59 28 R/e1-c1 (0:29) 5:40 R/g5-g4 (0:05) 5:04 29 K/h2-g1 (0:11) 5:51 P/h7-h5 (0:52) 5:56 time left in stored game: white 0:39, black 9:07 ( <- this matches ) When I got new connection, I had about 1:30 time left. So 9.09 - 1.30 is about 7 minutes and more. Here is the end position: --------------------------------------- 8| *r | | | | | | *k | | |---------------------------------------| 7| | | | *q | | | *p | | |---------------------------------------| 6| *p | | R | *b | | | | | |---------------------------------------| 5| | | | P | *P | | | *p | |---------------------------------------| 4| | P | | | P |*p | *r | | |---------------------------------------| 3| P | | | | | Q | | | |---------------------------------------| 2| | | | B | | P | P | | |---------------------------------------| 1| | | R | | | | K | | --------------------------------------- a b c d e f g h My move would have been (I know, because I made it before disconnecting) 30. Qh3, which looks like easy win for white, GIVING the time before disconnecting. But having only 1:30 and losing every move at least that 3 seconds made me offer an adjournement, to which my opponent replied with a draw offer. After some heated discussion, he consented to adjourn the game. So, what do you think netters? If majority wants it, I can still give bala the draw he so dearly wants to have. PS. I got one remedy for these situations. If my opponent would have thought, and understood that I hardly could think over 2 mins in position like this, and disconnected, I probably would have continued the game. (6 mins should have been enough.). Notice that I can't disconnect, because my quit command will not come through, and closing the connection at my site won't log me off at server. -- Mika Kukkonen = Mika.Kukko...@Helsinki.FI Trying to learn to live in Helsinki University of Computer Science. "I am studying, so I am, or am I (studying)?" Bala SWAMINATHAN May 4 1992, 8:49 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: b...@wucs1.wustl.edu (Bala SWAMINATHAN) - Find messages by this author Date: Mon, 4 May 1992 15:49:41 GMT Local: Mon, May 4 1992 8:49 am Subject: Re: Code of conduct on ICS? Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article <1992May4.071545.2...@klaava.Helsinki.FI> mkukk...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Mika Kukkonen) writes: >disconnecting. But having only 1:30 and losing every move at least that >3 seconds made me offer an adjournement, to which my opponent replied >with a draw offer. After some heated discussion, he consented to adjourn >the game. I made the draw offer first and then you come up with the idea of adjournment!!!! I just told you that 'I am offerring a draw because of nettiquette', your retort was that 'let us get adjudicated (first time I was hearing this word over the net)'..... Well you wanted what you want. I don't know if this can be considered a "heated" discussion. BTW: I did not know you were playing from Finland and that too with a modem. That really sucks. I had tried it from my home (mine is 1200 baud) and had vowed not to play games less than 40 with the modem. >So, what do you think netters? If majority wants it, I can still give bala >the draw he so dearly wants to have. Nope. I don't need a draw. We can play some time later and the game will be automatically overwritten, I guess. >PS. >I got one remedy for these situations. If my opponent would have >thought, and understood that I hardly could think over 2 mins in >position like this, and disconnected, I probably would have continued the >game. (6 mins should have been enough.). Notice that I can't disconnect, >because my quit command will not come through, and closing the >connection at my site won't log me off at server. Your point is well taken. Next time... Cheers S_Bala