Bruce A Hartzler Sep 27 1993, 2:06 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: Bruce A Hartzler - Find messages by this author Date: 27 Sep 1993 19:08:19 GMT Local: Mon, Sep 27 1993 12:08 pm Subject: ICS: Chess Obsessions and Chess Ethics Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse I'm curious. Given the predominant obsession among chess players to defeat their opponents, what prevents people from using computer assistance while playing matches on the ICS? I'm afraid the answer is probably nothing. But perhaps this is not all that bad. Granted, if I were to do this, I would feel similar to how I feel whenever I use a patch to "defeat" a game: unsatisfied, cheap, and fraudulent--the sense of power being only an illusion, albeit an intoxicating one. And if the practice is widespread, then what value/meaning do the "ratings" have? I guess our word is our bond (mostly we don't even have the "word"; i.e. when humiliated by another player only to discover your adversary was a Senior Thesis Project from a major university). Perhaps I am looking at this in the wrong way. Perhaps it's good that chess programs from software houses are being thoroughly tested against both humans and other programs. Perhaps we should make a pledge only to use chess programs; put a big sign at login saying something like "Chess Programs Only! No Humans Allowed!" This way, if someone should dare (gasp!) to play with his or her own wits, victory would bring not only glory and honor, but also the comfort of being among the elite who haven't yet been made obsolete by "The Machine." Bruce A Hartzler Department of Classics University of Texas at Austin email: bru...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu Jered M. Moses Sep 27 1993, 3:35 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: j...@po.CWRU.Edu (Jered M. Moses) - Find messages by this author Date: 27 Sep 1993 20:27:19 GMT Local: Mon, Sep 27 1993 1:27 pm Subject: Re: ICS: Chess Obsessions and Chess Ethics Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In a previous article, Bru...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Bruce A Hartzler) says: >I'm curious. Given the predominant obsession among chess players to >defeat their opponents, what prevents people from using computer >assistance while playing matches on the ICS? Ummmm... lack of motive? I mean, *why* would someone want to use a computer on ICS (other than the logins registered as computers)? To inflate their rating? So what? ICS ratings aren't worth anything in the real world. No tournament uses ICS ratings (other than ICS tourneys); no money or other significant profit can be gained. If your opponent is using a computer, either crush it or learn from it! :) --Kid Kibbitz -- j...@po.cwru.edu | "From childhood's hour I have not been | Quote from jmoses@heartland. | As others were -- I have not seen | "Alone," a bradley.edu | As others saw -- I could not bring | poem by KidKibbitz on ICS | My passions from a common spring." | Edgar Allen Poe Mike Thomas Sep 29 1993, 9:34 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: thom...@agcs.com (Mike Thomas) - Find messages by this author Date: 29 Sep 1993 09:18:04 -0700 Local: Wed, Sep 29 1993 9:18 am Subject: Re: ICS: Chess Obsessions and Chess Ethics Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article <287ib7$...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> j...@po.CWRU.Edu (Jered M. Moses) writes: - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - >In a previous article, Bru...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Bruce A Hartzler) says: >>I'm curious. Given the predominant obsession among chess players to >>defeat their opponents, what prevents people from using computer >>assistance while playing matches on the ICS? >Ummmm... lack of motive? >I mean, *why* would someone want to use a computer on ICS (other than the >logins registered as computers)? To inflate their rating? So what? ICS >ratings aren't worth anything in the real world. No tournament uses ICS >ratings (other than ICS tourneys); no money or other significant profit can >be gained. >If your opponent is using a computer, either crush it or learn from it! :) >--Kid Kibbitz A 'lack of motive' doesn't seem to restrain improper or unethical behavior elsewhere, why should it at chess? I've watched player's cheat at casual blitz games where there appears no rational motive for doing so. The facts are that there have been enough players using computers on the ICS that the sys-admins felt compelled to bring up the subject publicly. They encourage those who wish to play with computers to register openly on the ICS. If you believe that all those employing a computer to enhance their play on the ICS are now openly registered, please email me your name, I own a bridge in New York that you can acquire an interest in for a very reasonable amount. As to why someone seeks to inflate their ratings on the ICS, why not ask those who registered more than once under different handles? This has also occurred on the ICS and the sys-admins were also seeking to stomp this out. Look around at your own chess club or group, you'll find at least one type of personality for whom winning is the *only* thing that matters. They don't care whether they win by cheating or by playing competition so weak that there is no contest. This same mentality exists on the ICS. You'll find a number of players who exploit the excellent internet response of their systems to defeat opponents solely on the basis of time. These individuals aren't really that interested in chess, winning is the *only* thing that matters. Another interesting practice on the ICS is that of logging in using someone else's handle. What is the motive for this behavior? Once again the sys-admin's have made an effort to eliminate this. The concerns from the original poster seem valid to me. The overwhelming majority of chessplayer's do not want to compete against computers for a variety of reasons. It seems to me that it is impolite to use a computer without your opponent's consent and may even be regarded as unethical or unsportsman like behavior, i.e. cheating. It will be interesting to see if postal chess below the top ranks will even survive computers! With the advent of inexpensive programs capable of playing 2300 to 2400 chess, the old argument that the programs are too weak seems invalid. How can postal chess survive when it has devolved into nothing more than thousands of computer generated moves dutifully mailed by their servant humans to other computers? Where is the competition? Where is the contest? Where is the sport? Where is the art? Have fun cheating, Mr. Smart TD. -- --Education is the process of casting false pearls before real swine. ---Irshin Edman --Mike Thomas thom...@agcs.com Jered M. Moses Sep 29 1993, 11:19 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: j...@po.CWRU.Edu (Jered M. Moses) - Find messages by this author Date: 29 Sep 1993 17:37:56 GMT Local: Wed, Sep 29 1993 10:37 am Subject: Re: ICS: Chess Obsessions and Chess Ethics Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In a previous article, thom...@agcs.com (Mike Thomas) says: - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - >In article <287ib7$...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> j...@po.CWRU.Edu (Jered M. Moses) writes: >>I mean, *why* would someone want to use a computer on ICS (other than the >>logins registered as computers)? To inflate their rating? So what? ICS >>ratings aren't worth anything in the real world. No tournament uses ICS >>ratings (other than ICS tourneys); no money or other significant profit can >>be gained. >>If your opponent is using a computer, either crush it or learn from it! :) >A 'lack of motive' doesn't seem to restrain improper or unethical behavior >elsewhere, why should it at chess? I've watched player's cheat at casual >blitz games where there appears no rational motive for doing so. >The facts are that there have been enough players using computers on the >ICS that the sys-admins felt compelled to bring up the subject publicly. They >encourage those who wish to play with computers to register openly on the >ICS. >[lots of other stuff about cheating w/ computers deleted] Frankly, I can't see what your problem is with this (your in the general sense). First, people are going to cheat; so you've said above. If you find someone cheating, don't play them; ultimately, there isn't a lot you can do about it. There are no material rewards for cheating on ICS; any method which would seriously challenge cheating would be of greater cost than value. Second, you say "some people don't want to play computers." Okay, I guess, but it's a little irrational to me. I mean, some people don't like to play females, either; should we care? A computer plays chess with the same board and the same pieces as we do. It follows all the same rules. If you (again, general) don't like to play one, it seems to me that either (a) you like to play against "real people" for whatever reason, in which case ICS probably isn't ideal for you anyway; or (b) you feel that a computer has some "advantage" over you, in which case, it really seems like more of a problem with your chess ability than the computer itself..... I guess what I'm getting at is... it's a very small problem that's not worth the effort it would take to eliminate it. All, of course, IMHO. --KidKibbitz -- - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - j...@po.cwru.edu | "From childhood's hour I have not been | Quote from jmoses@heartland. | As others were -- I have not seen | "Alone," a bradley.edu | As others saw -- I could not bring | poem by KidKibbitz on ICS | My passions from a common spring." | Edgar Allen Poe Paul Colley Sep 29 1993, 3:19 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: col...@qucis.queensu.ca (Paul Colley) - Find messages by this author Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 20:43:36 GMT Local: Wed, Sep 29 1993 1:43 pm Subject: Re: ICS: Chess Obsessions and Chess Ethics Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article <28ch5k$...@ usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> j...@po.CWRU.Edu (Jered M. Moses) writes: >I guess what I'm getting at is... it's a very small problem that's not >worth the effort it would take to eliminate it. I agree. (But the dishonesty bothers me all out of proportion to the problems it poses). > [About computers playing on ICS] It follows all the same rules. If you >(again, general) don't like to play one, it seems to me that either (a) you >like to play against "real people" for whatever reason, in which case ICS >probably isn't ideal for you anyway I like to play against real people, and ICS *is* a disadantage that way. Nevertheless, humans play differently than machines (particularly at my skill level!). More importantly, they *talk* to you. When looking for an opponent I give strong consideration to those that are willing to comment during the game and chat about it afterwards. > or (b) you feel that a computer has >some "advantage" over you, in which case, it really seems like more of a >problem with your chess ability than the computer itself..... Most certainly, this is a non-issue for me, since in the process of avoiding players rated a zillion points higher than me, I also avoid even the worst of the computers. (I used to be able to play Kon, but it's now too strong too. ). - Paul Colley University: col...@qucis.queensu.ca Home: pacol...@ember.uucp watmath!ember!pacolley +1 613 545 3807 "Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of" - Ken Burnside Paul A. Lane Sep 29 1993, 3:44 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: pal...@iastate.edu (Paul A. Lane) - Find messages by this author Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 22:05:57 GMT Local: Wed, Sep 29 1993 3:05 pm Subject: Re: ICS: Chess Obsessions and Chess Ethics Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In < 28ch5k$...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> j...@po.CWRU.Edu (Jered M. Moses) writes : >Second, you say "some people don't want to play computers." Okay, I guess, >but it's a little irrational to me. I mean, some people don't like to play >females, either; should we care? A computer plays chess with the same >board and the same pieces as we do. It follows all the same rules. If you >(again, general) don't like to play one, it seems to me that either (a) you >like to play against "real people" for whatever reason, in which case ICS >probably isn't ideal for you anyway; or (b) you feel that a computer has >some "advantage" over you, in which case, it really seems like more of a >problem with your chess ability than the computer itself..... This doesn't make too much sense to me. If one wants to play a computer, why not simply pick up a chess program or chess computer or gnuchess or whatever and play it? Chess is not merely a game, but also a social acti- vity. It's also true that I believe I get more interesting games from a human opponent. It's not easy to quantify, but a human's style is (at least at my level) more interesting. I've slightly surpassed the chess program I have at home (~1600 USCF) and it's become little more than a training tool for trying out opening ideas. Paul Andrew Zaitsev Oct 6 1993, 5:00 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: S947...@UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU (Andrew Zaitsev) - Find messages by this author Date: Fri, 01 Oct 93 16:47:30 CDT Local: Fri, Oct 1 1993 2:47 pm Subject: Re: ICS: Chess Obsessions and Chess Ethics Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse >I'm curious. Given the predominant obsession among chess players to >defeat their opponents, what prevents people from using computer >assistance while playing matches on the ICS? I'm afraid the answer is >probably nothing. You are forgetting that other players can observe their games. Believe me, it is not that difficult to tell, whether human or computer is playing. And if you are caught secretly using computer program, well, you will certainly enjoy talking to admins about it :) Jim Todhunter Oct 7 1993, 5:35 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: j...@vmark.com (Jim Todhunter) - Find messages by this author Date: Thu, 07 Oct 93 02:38:29 GMT Local: Wed, Oct 6 1993 7:38 pm Subject: Re: ICS: Chess Obsessions and Chess Ethics Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article <16C5AEC26.S947...@UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU> S947...@UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU (Andrew Zaitsev) writes: >>I'm curious. Given the predominant obsession among chess players to >>defeat their opponents, what prevents people from using computer >>assistance while playing matches on the ICS? I'm afraid the answer is >>probably nothing. >You are forgetting that other players can observe their games. >Believe me, it is not that difficult to tell, whether human or computer >is playing. And if you are caught secretly using computer program, well, >you will certainly enjoy talking to admins about it :) I am not so sure you are correct to assume that people are not using computers. I have have seen a notice in one player's messages openly stating that he used a computer to assist in his games. I can not fathom what pleasure one would derive from having a computer play their game for them, but I suspect there may be those who are not so above-boards about such practices. -- ================================================================= James W. Todhunter, Director of Research & Development Vmark Software, Inc. 30 Speen Street Framingham, MA 01701 USA E-mail: j...@vmark.com Tel: 508-879-3311 Fax: 508-879-3332 Jered M. Moses Oct 7 1993, 8:35 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: j...@po.CWRU.Edu (Jered M. Moses) - Find messages by this author Date: 7 Oct 1993 13:49:07 GMT Local: Thurs, Oct 7 1993 6:49 am Subject: Re: ICS: Chess Obsessions and Chess Ethics Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In a previous article, j...@vmark.com (Jim Todhunter) says: >I am not so sure you are correct to assume that people are not using >computers. I have have seen a notice in one player's messages openly >stating that he used a computer to assist in his games. I can not >fathom what pleasure one would derive from having a computer play >their game for them, but I suspect there may be those who are not so >above-boards about such practices. Can you tell us *exactly* what his message said? That he used a computer to "assist" in his games, or that the player was "using a computer"? The former would make little sense to me; the latter would indicate to me that the player was playing for a computer--possibly testing a program he wrote, or else just playing a commercial program against humans to get some ideas or whatever. -- - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Kid Kibbitz -- j...@po.cwru.edu | "From childhood's hour I have not been | Quote from jmoses@heartland. | As others were -- I have not seen | "Alone," a bradley.edu | As others saw -- I could not bring | poem by KidKibbitz on ICS | My passions from a common spring." | Edgar Allen Poe Miss J A Cunningham Oct 7 1993, 9:29 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: a...@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Miss J A Cunningham) - Find messages by this author Date: 7 Oct 1993 16:10:15 +0100 Local: Thurs, Oct 7 1993 8:10 am Subject: Re: ICS: Chess Obsessions and Chess Ethics Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse >I am not so sure you are correct to assume that people are not using >computers. I have have seen a notice in one player's messages openly >stating that he used a computer to assist in his games. I can not >fathom what pleasure one would derive from having a computer play >their game for them, One of the reasons that people would want a computer to play the game is that they would wish to test the strength of a computer they have bought/written so they know either what they are up against, or how well they can code respectively. I do not believe that many people use computers other than those who state it since there really would be no point Neil Bond aka Keystone/Lorinda - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -