Daniel Sleator Oct 11 1993, 7:01 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: sleat...@cs.cmu.edu (Daniel Sleator) - Find messages by this author Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1993 17:01:10 GMT Local: Sun, Oct 10 1993 10:01 am Subject: A proposal Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse A proposal to move the ICS to a commercial site Daniel Sleator (Darooha) James Altucher (Vishnu) Dannie Kjeldgaard (TheDane) Ole Tange (Antetempore) Any continuation of the internet chess server is going to require a significant effort by capable people dedicated to making it work. (This includes Aspnes' distributed proposal, where some overseer would still be needed to create and maintain the ratings process, approve individual server sites, and make sure they are being run properly.) We feel that the best way for this to happen is for the server to become a commercial enterprise. We would like to do this. Here is roughly how it would work. The server would rent space (and bandwidth) on a commercial host. To raise money, membership fees would be required for players who wish to do certain things on the server. Here's a specific plan that we're considering: Membership costs roughly $10 per month. Members can do anything a registered player can do now (and be eligible to use the new features described below). Anybody (without paying a cent) can do ANYTHING that a registered player can do now, EXCEPT play rated games. There will be special categories of players who are not required to pay dues: Grandmasters, international masters, computers who want to take up residence (like Shannon, Hill, MaxII, Norm, Zippy, etc), supercomputers (like scratchy, or firefly) are all in this category. People who have written significant interfaces and people who carry out administrative duties would also be exempt. This mode of operation has other advantages (besides allowing the maintenance of a permanent stable host). Because cash would be available, it would be possible to: * Have regular exhibition matches between grandmasters and/or strong computers. * Have simultaneous matches between a GM and others. * Have direct feed to all major championship matches. * Have periodic well-run tournaments. * Have extensive databases, in which games can be examined and discussed by a group of players: - Championship games. - Games played on ICS. - On-Line access to a commercial opening database (such as ChessBase) * Write servers for other games, such as bughouse, and implement other useful and fun features on the server. * Get official recognition by the USCF. For example, ICS postal ratings could become official USCF ratings. * Produce a newsletter about the going-on in the server, and a schedule of upcoming events. Many of these are very difficult to arrange on a free server. Note how rarely GMs have played on the current server. (Rohde only played scratchy after clong offered to pay him, and Junior only played scratchy when Vishnu offered to pay his phone bill.) Note how a bughouse server still doesn't exist, despite continuous calls over the last year for its creation, and my full support of such an effort. Note how few well run tournaments there have been in ICS. We feel that the excitement and stability offered by our proposal will enable it to eventually survive in competition against free servers which might pop up. But we're worried that a combination of initial resistance to the idea by some, and the existence of running free servers allowing rated games might undermine the initial popularity of the pay server. Without these players, we might not be able to overcome the billing overhead and our host costs, and the pay server might fail. Furthermore, the pay server would be deprived of the excitement of having a higher population, making it less attractive even for those who are happy to pay for this service. For this reason we propose to turn off the free servers in the US and possibly in Europe. This is also why we have not released the source code. The host on which the US server is currently running (testbed.panix.com) is our current best candidate for where to run the pay server. In anticipation of switching over to a pay system, we have begun to implement several of the features mentioned above. Our plan is to get many of these features working before we start requiring membership dues. Obviously what we do, and how we run the new server will depend on people's reaction to this proposal. We are posting this now to allow a thoughtful discussion. Before flaming against this, remember: (*) that most chess clubs and tournaments require entry fees, (*) the new features that will be possible under this system, and (*) how much effort is required by anybody to keep even the current free server running. Joseph Albert Oct 11 1993, 7:31 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: alb...@trigger.cs.wisc.edu (Joseph Albert) - Find messages by this author Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 02:17:55 GMT Local: Mon, Oct 11 1993 7:17 pm Subject: Re: A proposal Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article sleat...@cs.cmu.edu (Daniel Sleator) writes: > A proposal to move the ICS to a commercial site > Daniel Sleator (Darooha) > James Altucher (Vishnu) > Dannie Kjeldgaard (TheDane) > Ole Tange (Antetempore) Well, I certainly see no reason why players should expect to get all the development effort, system admin. effort, machine access, internet connection etc. for free. As such I have no problem with players having to pay for access. i might well choose not to pay for it, and not use it, however, as there is significant opportunity to play chess where I live without the internet, perhaps I would prefer to have the access anyway. A few points though... my perception is that much of the server development was done on machines with which it is either illegal or against policy of the owner to use the machines for commercial enterprise. certainly such machines were used for Q.A. :-) Thus, moving to a commerical site while avoiding potential legal problems will, I believe, require demonstrating that the server is a not-for-profit enterprise. This would require having a non-profit organization to collect the fees, and pay for expenses. Certainly with some work, such a new organization could be formed, or even more ideal would be for the UCSF to act in that behalf. The ICS staff could still be in control of it, only member's would write checks to payable to USCF, which would be deposited into a special acct, and ICS staff would pay expenses from that account. another issue is that different people may prefer different levels of service at different levels of cost-- this I'm sure can be worked out. finally, my perception is that some commercial sites, have higher bandwidth connections to the internet-- for example I suspect that Netcom Communications, (netcom.com) has higher bandwidth than panix.com I don't really know, just guessing from observed performance. in any case, if such a move is to be made, it would be well to do a bit of advance comparison to find the most suitable host. anyway, i'm sure the proposal will generate alot of posts, so i'll sign off here, and let others take over the thread. Joseph Albert alb...@cs.wisc.edu Johannes Ullrich Oct 11 1993, 9:39 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: ju8...@csc.albany.edu (Johannes Ullrich) - Find messages by this author Date: 11 Oct 93 23:03:34 Local: Mon, Oct 11 1993 11:03 pm Subject: Re: A proposal Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse I like the proposal, BUT - You think you will find enough pay-users? $ 10 a month is to much for me :-( I am sure you will need this much money (if not more) to get a commercial site connected, but as a student I can not see spending one month worth of groceries a year just to play chess on the ICS. johannes. -- ********************************************************************* Johannes Ullrich ju8...@csc.albany.edu Physics Dept. phone: (518) 442 4496 (office) Center for X-ray Optics (518) 489 0968 (home) State University of New York fax : (518) 442 4486 Albany NY --------------------------------- 12222 USA burn flags, so people will stop dying for them. ********************************************************************* Peter Stein Oct 12 1993, 8:36 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: pst...@falcon.depaul.edu (Peter Stein) - Find messages by this author Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 15:16:42 GMT Local: Tues, Oct 12 1993 8:16 am Subject: Re: A proposal Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - In article sleat...@cs.cmu.edu (Daniel Sleator) writes: > A proposal to move the ICS to a commercial site > Daniel Sleator (Darooha) > James Altucher (Vishnu) > Dannie Kjeldgaard (TheDane) > Ole Tange (Antetempore) > [text deleted] >Obviously what we do, and how we run the new server will depend on >people's reaction to this proposal. We are posting this now to allow >a thoughtful discussion. Before flaming against this, remember: >(*) that most chess clubs and tournaments require entry fees, >(*) the new features that will be possible under this system, and >(*) how much effort is required by anybody to keep even the current >free server running. An excellent idea. Be careful on constructing a billing structure though. Users should pay on the basis of the demands they place on the system. An example of how not to do things is how USA Today's system penalizes postal players. I found myself in the ridiculous situation of losing about $30 after winning clear first in a very strong section. That's because postal player's have to pay the same monthly $9.95 as speed players who are on very frequently. My actual on-line time amounted to a few minutes per month which is a small fraction compared to the fixed monthly fee. Remember that postal contents last anywhere from 6 months upward. I think a better billing system would consist of a 1 time sign up charge and pay-as-you-go. Offering postal would attract a lot of players you don't already have in the ranks. If you were to hook up with APCT and the USCF you would probably get a lot of USCF players as well as LINC players who've been suffering the above scenario. The key to making it work is in the administration. We have a golden opportunity here to get it right before we start. I think this commercial version could be a big winner. Paul Colley Oct 12 1993, 3:21 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: col...@qucis.queensu.ca (Paul Colley) - Find messages by this author Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 21:38:42 GMT Local: Tues, Oct 12 1993 2:38 pm Subject: Re: A proposal Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse This article contains mostly my opinions, few facts. Those that don't want to listen to my opinions, skip to the next topic... In article sleat...@cs.cmu.edu (Daniel Sleator) writes: > A proposal to move the ICS to a commercial site [...] > Here's a specific plan that we're considering: Membership >costs roughly $10 per month. The author of the original ICS estimated that it took him about 40 hours of work; and that duplicating the *current* ICS would take him (from possibly-faulty memory) 80 hours of work. I'm willing to pay for ICS; but if you don't think it can survive against free servers, you'd better not risk your capital. Shutting down the current ICS, as you suggest: > For this reason >we propose to turn off the free servers in the US and possibly in >Europe. This is also why we have not released the source code. That is the surest way to have somebody else write similar code. At the moment, they are whining because they think they might get it from just whining; but take away their toy, and one of them will do it for the same reason you did. Give an incentive of $120/yr/person and it's a certainty. 80 work hours is a very short time; and there is already a functional, but buggy server in the public-domain. If you can't compete against the free competition from day 1, it isn't going to work. >Obviously what we do, and how we run the new server will depend on >people's reaction to this proposal. We are posting this now to allow >a thoughtful discussion. Before flaming against this, remember: >(*) that most chess clubs and tournaments require entry fees, >(*) the new features that will be possible under this system, and >(*) how much effort is required by anybody to keep even the current >free server running. Good points. It's your need to shutdown the free servers that makes me suspect that the project is not sound, - Paul Colley University: col...@qucis.queensu.ca Home: pacol...@ember.uucp watmath!ember!pacolley +1 613 545 3807 "Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of" - Ken Burnside Chris Lott Oct 12 1993, 4:12 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: f...@aurora.alaska.edu (Chris Lott) - Find messages by this author Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 22:43:52 GMT Local: Tues, Oct 12 1993 3:43 pm Subject: Re: A proposal Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article , sleat...@cs.cmu.edu (Daniel Sleator) writes: > A proposal to move the ICS to a commercial site > Daniel Sleator (Darooha) > James Altucher (Vishnu) > Dannie Kjeldgaard (TheDane) > Ole Tange (Antetempore) > Any continuation of the internet chess server is going to require a > significant effort by capable people dedicated to making it work. > (This includes Aspnes' distributed proposal, where some overseer would > still be needed to create and maintain the ratings process, approve > individual server sites, and make sure they are being run properly.) > We feel that the best way for this to happen is for the server to > become a commercial enterprise. We would like to do this. I think this is a FANTASTIC idea-- a commercial site would be great, especially as being in Alaska makes internet the only feasible method of doing things like this online (phone bills and the like add up)! However there are some things that should be taken into account: 1. Though the price seems reasonable to me, there might be some method of making a price based on levels of use. I do NOT mean a pay-as-you-go plan, but rather, say, three different levels of flat fees depending on what features are available or something of the like. I personally would be willing to pay a little more so that others could pay a little less. 2. MOST IMPORTANT AT THIS TIME: The current site you are testing and proposing as a possible site seems very unsatisfactory. I, and many others it appears, have severe lag at this site. It would seem that there have to be higher bandwidth alternatives. I personally think this is a fantastic idea-- regular GM matches, computer exhibitions, complete tournaments, and especially USCF rated events (because here in Alaska we have little, and in Fairbanks even less (read that none) of an opportunity to attend these kind of events). Database access and analysis-- it all sounds great. Not without problems I am sure, but it seems about time for ICS to expand in this fashion. -- chris poet and pauper f...@aurora.alaska.edu Joseph Albert Oct 13 1993, 1:03 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: alb...@trigger.cs.wisc.edu (Joseph Albert) - Find messages by this author Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 01:48:53 GMT Local: Tues, Oct 12 1993 6:48 pm Subject: Re: A proposal Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article col...@qucis.queensu.ca (Paul Colley) writes: >> A proposal to move the ICS to a commercial site >The author of the original ICS estimated that it took him about 40 >hours of work; and that duplicating the *current* ICS would take him >(from possibly-faulty memory) 80 hours of work. >80 work hours is a very short time; and there is already a functional, >but buggy server in the public-domain. >If you can't compete against the free competition from day 1, it isn't >going to work. there may be source in the public domain, and even if that were bug-free and the perfect server, you are going to have to find someone who will donate some of their network bandwidth to run the server. someone correct me if my information is wrong, but i have the following perceptions: - none of the servers use very much cpu time, RAM, or disk space on typical machines. - a chess server is not a very sophisticated piece of software in the absence of replicated ratings with recoverable transactions to post ratings updates. - the current load on the server uses a significant amount of network bandwidth, and this is the critical resource for the server. I speculate that the reason the server has bounced around so much, and had limits of number of users is organizations who had donated their resources for the server found the demand for network bandwidth too high. Unfortunately, Daniel Sleator et al. did not go into the nitty-gritty details in their proposal, and I invite them to post a more specific followup. My assumption is that the proposal to move to a commercial site is to run a not-for-profit server where the users pay for, among other things, the network bandwidth to access the server. I think this is reasonable (though I may choose not to use the server for $10 per month). On the other hand, public resources were utilized in the development of the current server, so, while the source is not released to the public domain, it is not commercial property either. Joseph Albert alb...@cs.wisc.edu albert@ics Richard "red" Nash Oct 15 1993, 5:57 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: n...@visus.com (Richard "red" Nash) - Find messages by this author Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 13:41:48 GMT Local: Wed, Oct 13 1993 6:41 am Subject: Re: A proposal Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse Well I've had it! In an effort to make sure that internet chess services remain free, I am endeavoring to write an alternate server. Since I have the code to the old server I am a good choice for this. When I have completed a rudimentary server, I will release the code into the public domain with a GNU-style copyright to assure that never again can anyone monopolize this service. I am soliciting programmers who are willing to help me. I already have several people at the Univ. of Pittsburgh who will help. Also they will donate a machine for shaking out the bugs in the server and establishing the full fledged server when work is completed. Contact me via email. Thanks, Rich Nash