Michael Browne Feb 8 1994, 9:46 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: m...@pleasca.Eng.Sun.COM (Michael Browne) - Find messages by this author Date: 8 Feb 1994 17:46:24 GMT Local: Tues, Feb 8 1994 9:46 am Subject: Re: Rotting of ICS Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse Disclaimer: I have never used ICS, so I don't know how the admins act. Maybe they are a bunch of babies, maybe they aren't, I don't care. However, I still object to posts like the following: In article a100...@unixd3.cis.pitt.edu, scha...@pitt.edu (Univeristy of Pittsburgh Chess Club) writes: > Please reconsider your decision to hoard the ICS code. Please reconsider your decision to hoard your money and/or time. If you don't like how ICS is administered, organize an alternative!! Just stop whining!!! It's THEIR code and they are under NO obligation to distribute it if they don't want to. Come on, there are plenty of good programmers here... if you aren't one, you can certainly find one and give him/her a few bucks to develop an alternate ICS... > I challenge you to again discuss, in this arena, what its > going to take to get you to release the code. I would guess a few thousand dollars would do the trick... that's what it would take if I owned the code... --Mike, who likes a lot of GNU software but feels that their philosophy is repugnant... Daniel Sleator Feb 8 1994, 9:53 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: sleat...@cs.cmu.edu (Daniel Sleator) - Find messages by this author Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 17:53:14 GMT Local: Tues, Feb 8 1994 9:53 am Subject: Re: Rotting of ICS Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse A bunch of things are being confused here. First of all, I think Darrin Bond is exaggerating the size of the dissatisfied population on ICS. I think the vast majority of the users of ICS are satisfied with the situiaton. (Except for lag, about which I'll say more later.) Secondly, I don't see any connection between the release of the code, and complaints against me. Being the head admin of a server -- even if there are a dozen other servers running -- makes one the object of complaints and criticism, fair and unfair. Third, as far as I know there have been no "very serious indictments of my character". So I don't need to defend myself. I have never mistreated Seggev, or done anything unethical. Oh, unless you count giving him a couple of aliases like "o-o --> tell mirage castling would be a bad idea now." A very funny and fairly harmless practical joke. I think that on balance the admins are doing an excellent job. Sure, we admins make some mistakes now and then, and sometimes we even get angry and do impuslive things. With the amount of time spent there, and the number of strange characters around, unpleasant things are bound to happen now and then. Putting this in perspective, I'm very pleased with their work. The apparent increase in lag recently has gotten me thinking about perhaps building the satellite system -- a central name/rating/password server connected via email to satellite chess servers (as suggested by James Aspnes and Ed Mallet). You could play at the site with the least lag for you. I am also thinking about making the code public, which is an independent question. I'm still collecting thoughts on this. In the mean time I too would be interested in hearing how Darrin Bond would improve things. Judging from conversations I've had with him, I guess he would eliminate wild games, and games with time control under 5 minutes. Darooha Jeffrey Schoenborn Feb 8 1994, 2:01 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: jscho...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Jeffrey Schoenborn) - Find messages by this author Date: 8 Feb 1994 17:01:17 -0500 Local: Tues, Feb 8 1994 2:01 pm Subject: Re: Rotting of ICS Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse scha...@pitt.edu (Univeristy of Pittsburgh Chess Club) writes: >Please reconsider your decision to hoard the ICS code. If you are truly If you really want to make another chess server, you can just write your own code. I realize that this would require a great deal of effort, but a great deal of effort is needed to keep such up anyway. If you want to make a request to the author(s?) do so directly, not try to embarrass the person via this newsgroup. Already the European server has very few people on it; if there were more servers, there would be less people who use each one, which would make things a bit less interesting. If you really want to help make things better for the ICS users, try to find a lag free server to put it on. -- Jeff Schoenborn j...@orthanc.async.vt.edu Richard "red" Nash Feb 10 1994, 6:29 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: n...@visus.com (Richard "red" Nash) - Find messages by this author Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 14:29:59 GMT Local: Thurs, Feb 10 1994 6:29 am Subject: Re: Rotting of ICS Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse Myself and other people have asked that Dan Sleator allow others to use his code. He has refused. Every post I have read on this subject has made the same comment: "Dan is under no obligation to give up his code. Why don't you just write your own server." This is true, and there is no argument to the contrary. My request is not a legal one, but a respectful one. I appeal to the maturity of those who have the code to stop hoarding it. It is apparent that there is no financial gain to be made, so the only other reason to keep it is a childish need to control the internet chess world. As for the car comparison that was made by John Chanak, it just doesn't hold water. He asked Darrin Bond, who had asked for the code, if he was willing to give up his car. Well, speaking for myself, if I had the ability to duplicate my car at no cost to myself and give away those duplicates, YES I would give one to whoever asked. (Although you probably wouldn't want it, it's rusty, slow, and doesn't run well in the winter.) There is an ongoing, although slow going, process to write a new server. Unfortunately no one has stepped forward to devote the kind of time that would be needed to really put it together. Although I would like to see the new server written, I feel this is a wasted effort. There is already a perfectly fine server out there that has gone through years of debugging that is being hoarded for no good reason. -- +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Richard V. Nash | Visual Understanding Systems, Inc. | | n...@visus.com | Tel. (412)-488-3600 Fax. (412)-488-3611 | +---------------------------------------------------------------+ Jeffrey Schoenborn Feb 10 1994, 7:52 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: jscho...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Jeffrey Schoenborn) - Find messages by this author Date: 10 Feb 1994 10:52:54 -0500 Local: Thurs, Feb 10 1994 7:52 am Subject: Re: Rotting of ICS Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse sleat...@cs.cmu.edu (Daniel Sleator) writes: >The apparent increase in lag recently has gotten me thinking about >perhaps building the satellite system -- a central >name/rating/password server connected via email to satellite chess >servers (as suggested by James Aspnes and Ed Mallet). You could play >at the site with the least lag for you. I am also thinking about If you did this, it would be a good idea to encourage (but definitely not require) players of the same general rating brackets to stick to the same server. What I like most about ICS is that at any given time there are at least a dozen players who are of about the same ability as I am. It gets rather boring playing either opponents wo I can consistently beat, or ones who can consistently beat me, or the same people all the time. What I think would happen with a satelite system is taht either one of the servers would be used more heavily than the others, and thus defeat the whole purpose of the system; or playesr will be spread evenly, making it more difficult to find interesting matches. -- Jeff Schoenborn j...@orthanc.async.vt.edu Ghica Feb 10 1994, 8:25 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: g...@fig.citib.com (Ghica) - Find messages by this author Date: 10 Feb 1994 11:25:50 -0500 Local: Thurs, Feb 10 1994 8:25 am Subject: Re: Rotting of ICS Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article , scha...@pitt.edu (Univeristy of Pittsburgh Chess Club) writes: |> Please reconsider your decision to hoard the ICS code . If you are truly |> trying to do something for the good of chess and not feeding us a line of |> crap, give up the code. It appears that there are quite a few people who |> are dissatified with the current situation and would like to have another |> alternative. There are also some people (myself included) who have other |> ideas about what the server can be used for. If you would just give up |> the code the people that don't like the currnet sich will leave you to do |> what you want and it would also save you from the embarrassment of trying |> to defend yourself against repeated and very serious indictments of your |> character. I challenge you to again discuss, in this arena, what its |> going to take to get you to release the code. I am flexible and |> reasonable and willing to work with you to make chess on the internet a |> pleasant experience for everyone. |> |> Thanks, |> |> Darrin L. Bond |> President |> This is the most obtuse mail I have read all week! "..PLease reconsider your decision to hoard the code..." "..give the code.." "..If you would just give up the code.." "..what its going to take to get you to release the code" etc etc *FLAME ON* Mr Bond is obviously a deluded individual (President title notwithstanding) with no concept of capitalism, free enterprise or that great machinery called "market forces". The way he's whining about "Darooha" releasing the "code" -ooh- you'd think we're talking about AIDS research or a a revolutionary solar wind collector furnace or better yet, THE SECRETS TO THE UNIVERSE!! COME ON DAROOHA TELLS US THE SECRETS TO THE UNIVERSE! WE ARE REASONABLE PEOPLE! THERE ARE OTHERS THAT CAN INTERPRET THEM BETTER!! HAHAHAHAHA! Mr Bond - WAKE UP! Mr. Sleator does not have to "defend himself from the embarassement of repeated character "assasinations". You and everyone else that is stuck with tunnel vision about the release of the "magical mystical" chess server code are a bothersome flea to a work horse thats doing a great job (Sleator). Why don't you take some of those people that u say can modify the server code (to make it better u say, to make it worse, I say) and get them to start from scratch! And get off our collective backs! WOW! what a concept! IMHO, I think that people that whine about releasing the "code" instead of writing it themselves are probably the same people that studied old tests in college and copied homeworks the day before they were due! Without any further comments, I refer you to these basic concepts. Understand them well before u make a fool of yourself, and understand that you are MOST DEFINITELY in the minority here. 1) Copyrighted work 2) Private property 3) Free enterprise 4) Capitalism 5) Patented work 6) Market forces 7) ********* Original work ************* 8) Chess If I see one more post about the release of the "magic" server code, I'm going to post a GIF of VOMIT! I swear! ;-) I'm sure that Borland International gets calls about "releasing their source code to the compiler" once in a awhile, and they are most accomodating in releasing some source, but they are not going to give away the cow. Look at gnuc, gnuc++ and compare it any major commercial compiler from SUN, HP, Borland, Microsoft, Symantec(maybe not symantec ;-)) etc etc. What is the pattern here? There is a free compiler, but most people STILL BUY THEM!! WHY??? because the free one ISNT AS GOOD! *FLAME OFF* Decentralization will most surely make the new server only as good as its worse programmer! I can see it now ... "No, don't play on slow.systems.edu, that server sucks!!!" "I'll see u on "fast.turbo.com, ok? or was that rapid.farbo.edu? hmmm" "Well, LETS LOG ON EVERYWHERE!" Peter Arsenault Feb 10 1994, 1:19 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: arsen...@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Peter Arsenault) - Find messages by this author Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 21:19:15 GMT Local: Thurs, Feb 10 1994 1:19 pm Subject: Re: Rotting of ICS Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse qhubb...@u.washington.edu (Quinn Hubbard) writes: >Mr. Bond posts a request for the ICS code. >If you agree with the facts, then you can see the problem. Here are >some alternatives in dealing with the problem: [ alternatives 1 & 2] -- both bad and not worth repeating, IMHO. >3. Write your own code. (I am surprised by the absence of people >selecting this alternative). Yes! I absolutly agree. Heck, I'd like to give it a shot in my free time. Maybe we could get a thing going like the GNU chess program. I'm sure an internet sever would be much easier. Please write me if you are interested like I am and we could make it a group project. Sincerely, Peter -- ======================================================== + Peter Arseneau + PeterPuck _ * + 2515 Brunswick Street + // * + Halifax, Nova Scotia + (ICS) // * + + _____// * + (902) 429-3794 + |_____/ * ======================================================== Sam E. Trenholme Feb 10 1994, 11:22 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: s...@soda.berkeley.edu (Sam E. Trenholme) - Find messages by this author Date: 11 Feb 1994 07:22:39 GMT Local: Thurs, Feb 10 1994 11:22 pm Subject: Re: Rotting of ICS Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse Ok, lets get the facts straight here. If you do not agree w/ GNU's phil- osophy, you do not have to give your code the gnu liscense. If you feel commercial software is better, you can buy commercial software. The purpose of the GNU is to generate better code by making ir free w/ freely available source, so that people can improve it if they are willing to freely distribute the improved code. I am not demanding that Darhooa give away his ICS server code, I am merely seeing if there can be some form of freely-available chess server. Hopefully Mike will give out a pre-ICS chess server, or it looks like time to modify one of these mud/talk skeletons to make it an ICS clone. Btw, USA-net, or whoever they are, are asking something like $5 an hour for what Darhooa gives away freely. Thankx, Darhooa. Also: I like the wild games, Darhooa. Tony Acero Feb 13 1994, 8:31 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess, gnu.misc.discuss Followup-To: gnu.misc.discuss From: a...@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Tony Acero) - Find messages by this author Date: Sun, 13 Feb 1994 16:31:06 GMT Local: Sun, Feb 13 1994 8:31 am Subject: Re: Rotting of ICS Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article <2jfbnv$...@agate.berkeley.edu> s...@soda.berkeley.edu (Sam E. Trenholme) writes: >Ok, lets get the facts straight here. If you do not agree w/ GNU's phil- >osophy, you do not have to give your code the gnu liscense. If you feel >commercial software is better, you can buy commercial software. The >purpose of the GNU is to generate better code by making ir free w/ >freely available source, so that people can improve it if they are willing >to freely distribute the improved code. I am not demanding that Darhooa >give away his ICS server code, I am merely seeing if there can be some >form of freely-available chess server. Hopefully Mike will give out a >pre-ICS chess server, or it looks like time to modify one of these >mud/talk skeletons to make it an ICS clone. >Btw, USA-net, or whoever they are, are asking something like $5 an hour for >what Darhooa gives away freely. Thankx, Darhooa. >Also: I like the wild games, Darhooa. Sam, I don't think the GNU Public License requires that you release changes to the code unless you are distributing the program. Quoting some relevant parts (if you have GNU Emacs just do C-h C-c to view the General Public License in all it's glory): GPL> To protect your rights, we need to make restrictions that forbid GPL> anyone to deny you these rights or to ask you to surrender the rights. GPL> These restrictions translate to certain responsibilities for you if GPL> you distribute copies of the software, or if you modify it. GPL> For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether GPL> gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights GPL> that you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get GPL> the source code. And you must show them these terms so they know GPL> their rights. The above relies on an implied definition of 'distribution'. Making something available for anonymous FTP is _clearly_ distribution. But is merely excuting the object code and making the resultant service available? Now, let's consider when a chess server, if its code were protected under the GPL, would be required to have its modified code released -- in other words, when is such a program or its code considered "distributed". Whether a server available for public use at the modifying programmer's site can be considered "distributed" software, I consider doubtful, but open to debate. However, a server that jumps from site to site, I would consider "distributed" (mostly because the code has to be copied from site to site in order to be recompiled) -- although still open to question, especially if the programmer who modified the code were administering the server at the various sites. My point is, that the GPL may not be enough to make sure that improvements to a program such as the chess server get folded back in to the original code and are distributed -- a certain amount of good will has to exist. I respect Darooha's right to maintain control of his code, and determine its destiny. I do question, however, if his is the most optimal stance with respect to improving the server, and ensuring its long term development. I have been quite impressed with the results of distributed development efforts, such as Linux and GNU, where rapid and impressive results are obtained from the coordinated efforts of many people in many places -- although such a model may not be appropriate for such a (relatively!!) small program. And finally, for my own information, I'd like to know under what conditions the code for the original server (the one written by Michael Moore) was distributed. Follow-ups to gnu.misc.discuss unless the follow-up deals specifically with chess or the chess server. Tony -- Anibal Antonio Acero (Tony) (LLama) | Stone age or space age, man will be ask- a-ac...@uchicago.edu | ing the same question as his grandparents ___W(312)702-8214 H(312)752-5464____| before him and as his grandchildren after him: "What star is that?" -- H.A. Rey, _The Stars, A New Way to See Them_ Alain Picard Feb 14 1994, 5:40 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: apic...@estsa3.estec.esa.nl (Alain Picard) - Find messages by this author Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 13:40:45 GMT Local: Mon, Feb 14 1994 5:40 am Subject: Re: Rotting of ICS Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse >>>>> Regarding Re: Rotting of ICS; m...@pleasca.Eng.Sun.COM (Michael >>>>> Browne) adds: Michael> However, I still object to posts like the following: > someone whose name got lost (Univeristy of Pittsburgh Chess Club) writes: >>>> Please reconsider your decision to hoard the ICS code. Michael> Please reconsider your decision to hoard your money and/or Michael> time. If you don't like how ICS is administered, organize an Michael> alternative!! Just stop whining!!! Michael> It's THEIR code and they are under NO obligation to Michael> distribute it if they don't want to. Absolutely correct. This seems so obvious! If someone *wants* to give you something, great, but berating them for not wanting to? It's not like anyone is stopping anyone else from writing similar code... However, Michael> --Mike, who likes a lot of GNU software but feels that their Michael> philosophy is repugnant... --ap, who likes a lot of GNU software and feels that their philosophy is pure and noble, but who still thinks no one is under any obligation to believe in it if they don't want to... -- |------------------------------------//----------------------| |alain.pic...@astro.estec.esa.nl // Linux: the choice | |ESTEC // of a GNU generation | |---------------------------------//-------------------------| James Aspnes Feb 14 1994, 3:33 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: aspnes-ja...@cs.yale.edu (James Aspnes) - Find messages by this author Date: 14 Feb 1994 18:33:53 -0500 Local: Mon, Feb 14 1994 3:33 pm Subject: why to berate someone who won't give you something (was: ICS stuff) Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article apic...@estsa3.estec.esa.nl (Alain Picard) writes: Michael> It's THEIR code and they are under NO obligation to Michael> distribute it if they don't want to. Absolutely correct. This seems so obvious! If someone *wants* to give you something, great, but berating them for not wanting to? It's not like anyone is stopping anyone else from writing similar code ... Well, consider these two alternatives: 1. Somebody else duplicates the ICS server code. Cost: as much as two or three person-months of coding, testing, and making sure that the interface features match the existing ICS code enough that it won't break all the client programs. Benefit: free ICS code exists. 2. Darooha release the ICS server code he's already got. Cost: zero [1]. Benefit: free ICS code exists. One can argue about whether the benefit in either case is positive or negative [2]. But it's pretty clear which of the two alternatives costs less. So any right-minded utilitarian who felt the benefit was positive would of course berate Darooha for not releasing the code, at least if they though that would make alternative 2 more likely [3]. Now you may ask: utilitarianism is for self-righteous weenies, what's Jim Aspnes's real ulterior stake in this? Well, every now and then somebody posts are really obnoxious boot-licking rant about how the status quo ICS is the best possible ICS, that nobody could ever write a better ICS, and that even if somebody did write a better ICS that would lead to the end of civilization because it would end up getting run by Slobodan Milosevic or Campomanes or somebody--- and when this happens, my blood pressure soars, my eyes bulge out, my face turns red, and I write another thousand lines of would-be free ICS code [4]. So when you look at the cost in alternative #1 up there, I'm one of the people who may be paying it. Huff... puff... grumble...sigh. --Jim Aspnes [1] Well, maybe some embarassment for Darooha--- I've never seen the code myself, so I have no idea how crufty it might or might not be. [2] I'd claim it's positive, others of a more monopolistic or totalitarian streak have argued that it would just lead to all sorts of icky competition and/or freedom. [3] My guess is berating Darooha just makes it less likely he'll release the code. So far the experimental results seem to confirm this thesis. [4] Ok, this has actually only happened once. John Neatrour Feb 14 1994, 3:58 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: jneat...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (John Neatrour) - Find messages by this author Date: 14 Feb 1994 23:58:21 GMT Local: Mon, Feb 14 1994 3:58 pm Subject: Re: why to berate someone who won't give you something (was: ICS stuff) Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse Cost issue is irrelevant. Authorship and ownership are the only relevant points. I find people who demand that I give what is mine tiresome in the extreme. This thread is tiresome. Have those of you who feel entitled to this code considered extortion or theft as an alternative to authorship? ;-) j neatrour Johannes Fuernkranz Feb 15 1994, 2:05 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: j...@ai.univie.ac.at (Johannes Fuernkranz) - Find messages by this author Date: 15 Feb 1994 10:05:27 GMT Local: Tues, Feb 15 1994 2:05 am Subject: Re: Rotting of ICS Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article <1994Feb10.142959.13...@visus.com>, Richard "red" Nash wrote: >Myself and other people have asked that Dan Sleator allow others to use his >code. He has refused. Every post I have read on this subject has made the same >comment: "Dan is under no obligation to give up his code. Why don't you just >write your own server." >This is true, and there is no argument to the contrary. My request is not a >legal one, but a respectful one. I appeal to the maturity of those who have the >code to stop hoarding it. It is apparent that there is no financial gain to be >made, so the only other reason to keep it is a childish need to control the >internet chess world. There is only one creator of the ICS world. Thou shallst not have any other god beside hime. (Sorry for my fake ancient English, but at least I tried...) >As for the car comparison that was made by John Chanak, it just doesn't hold >water. He asked Darrin Bond, who had asked for the code, if he was willing to >give up his car. Well, speaking for myself, if I had the ability to duplicate >my car at no cost to myself and give away those duplicates, YES I would give >one to whoever asked. (Although you probably wouldn't want it, it's rusty, >slow, and doesn't run well in the winter.) Excellent analogy. I would also give away all duplicates of products of mine, in particular when they are rusty, slow and don't run well in the winter. I'd hope to get back a fixed version in that case. Semi :-) Juffi Michael Browne Feb 15 1994, 11:33 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: m...@pleasca.Eng.Sun.COM (Michael Browne) - Find messages by this author Date: 15 Feb 1994 19:33:18 GMT Local: Tues, Feb 15 1994 11:33 am Subject: Re: why to berate someone who won't give you s Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article 2jp1p1INN...@PINE.THEORY.CS.YALE.EDU, aspnes-ja...@cs.yale.edu (James Aspnes) writes: - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - > Well, consider these two alternatives: > 1. Somebody else duplicates the ICS server code. Cost: as much as two > or three person-months of coding, testing, and making sure that the > interface features match the existing ICS code enough that it won't > break all the client programs. Benefit: free ICS code exists. > 2. Darooha release the ICS server code he's already got. Cost: zero [1]. > Benefit: free ICS code exists. > One can argue about whether the benefit in either case is positive or > negative [2]. But it's pretty clear which of > the two alternatives costs less. So any right-minded utilitarian who > felt the benefit was positive would of course berate Darooha for not > releasing the code, at least if they though that would make > alternative 2 more likely [3]. Yes indeed, Marxism is MUCH more efficient than Capitalism. Marxist societies completely avoid the wasteful duplication of effort that is an inherent part of Capitalism. I better add :-) or else I might get into trouble... Oh yes, as for the cost of option 2: TANSTAAFL! The cost to YOU is zero. Darooha and company have already paid the cost for you... Yes indeed, it would be mighty nice if some one gave me a shiny new car just because I want it... but I'm not holding my breath... --Mike, who sounds like much more of a right-wing ideologue than he actually is... Michael Browne Feb 15 1994, 11:40 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: m...@pleasca.Eng.Sun.COM (Michael Browne) - Find messages by this author Date: 15 Feb 1994 19:40:40 GMT Local: Tues, Feb 15 1994 11:40 am Subject: Re: Rotting of ICS Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article 1...@visus.com, n...@visus.com (Richard "red" Nash) writes: > I appeal to the maturity of those who have the > code to stop hoarding it. I appeal to the maturity of those who have the money to stop hoarding it. I could really use some. > There is an ongoing, although slow going, process to write a new server. > Unfortunately no one has stepped forward to devote the kind of time that would > be needed to really put it together. Although I would like to see the new > server written, I feel this is a wasted effort. There is already a perfectly > fine server out there that has gone through years of debugging that is being > hoarded for no good reason. "Dear Mr. Gates: Please send me a copy of your latest C compiler. I could write one myself, but that would take a lot of effort that I feel would be wasted. Since you already have a perfectly good C compiler, please stop hoarding it and send me a copy immediately. --Mike P.S. - I'm going to need the source code too..." Ole Tange Feb 15 1994, 4:51 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: t...@daimi.aau.dk (Ole Tange) - Find messages by this author Date: 16 Feb 1994 00:51:03 GMT Local: Tues, Feb 15 1994 4:51 pm Subject: IRCS (was: Re: Rotting of ICS) Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse Thus spake jscho...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Jeffrey Schoenborn): >sleat...@cs.cmu.edu (Daniel Sleator) writes: >>The apparent increase in lag recently has gotten me thinking about >>perhaps building the satellite system -- a central >>name/rating/password server connected via email to satellite chess >>servers (as suggested by James Aspnes and Ed Mallet). You could play >>at the site with the least lag for you. I am also thinking about You could just use the IRC-net which is already there (OK, I know it is not *that* stable). But then if two players are sitting (net-wise) near to eachother then the moves don't have to be transmitted to the US and back again. The 'sattelite'-server would then be the 'IRCS' client. The central server would then not need to transmit the moves (Which is the main lag-problem as far as I know). All it would have to do is to tell the clients to join the same uniquely named secret channel and play there. I know this idea needs a bit more thorough thinking (but it's late and my dyne misses me). -- - Du spilder ikke tider, hva'? - Det skal man heller ikke. Russian Pizza Blues James Aspnes Feb 15 1994, 6:17 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: aspnes-ja...@cs.yale.edu (James Aspnes) - Find messages by this author Date: 15 Feb 1994 21:17:41 -0500 Local: Tues, Feb 15 1994 6:17 pm Subject: Re: why to berate someone who won't give you s Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article , m...@pleasca.Eng.Sun.COM (Michael Browne) rears back, takes aim, and punches bad old Comrade Marx right in the nose: Yes indeed, Marxism is MUCH more efficient than Capitalism. Marxist societies completely avoid the wasteful duplication of effort that is an inherent part of Capitalism . Oomf! Straw flies out of the Bearded Commie Devil from every seam! But wait? Who are those injured-looking folks standing behind the poor demolished scarecrow? Aren't those the people who were complaining that releasing the ICS code would lead to lots of icky competition, multiple servers with one player on each, and all-around duplication of effort? And here I am, standing on the sidelines, wondering why you would choose to stand with me against them. I realize that you're probably adopting the usual Usenet approach of writing a knee-jerk response to a few keywords without bothering to examine their context, but if you go back and read some of the earlier parts of this discussion you may find it easier to pick the right targets for your ironies. Oh yes, as for the cost of option 2: TANSTAAFL! The cost to YOU is zero. Darooha and company have already paid the cost for you ... I'm talking about marginal costs. You know, what running-dog capitalist economists care about. The marginal cost to Darooha (and company?) of releasing the code is very close to zero. We aren't talking about one of those old industrial products like cars or houses that dominated Robert A. Heinlein's (PBUH) economy--- the cost of duplicating software is virtually nil. That Darooha spent a lot of time developing the code from its original base is at this point irrelevant to any decision he makes. That effort is already spent, whether he releases the code or not. In any case, this is getting pretty tangential. To recap: somebody asked why someone would berate Darooha for not giving out the code. I wouldn't berate Darooha for not giving out the code, certainly not in this forum, because it would be pointless and counterproductive. But since the original asker seemed to be genuinely confused, I though I would answer their question. That this answer doesn't fit very well with quaint labor-theory-of-value notions like "TANSTAAFL!" (exclamation point retained so that this reflexive interjection won't be misinterpreted as the result of conscious thought) doesn't really concern me much. Quinn Hubbard Feb 16 1994, 10:12 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: qhubb...@u.washington.edu (Quinn Hubbard) - Find messages by this author Date: 16 Feb 1994 18:12:03 GMT Local: Wed, Feb 16 1994 10:12 am Subject: Re: why to berate someone who won't give you s Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse James Aspnes posts an economic analysis of situation. Mr. Aspnes second alternative is for Mr. Sleator to release the code. Apparently, Mr. Aspnes disagrees with the facts in my previous post. If Mr. Aspnes agrees with the facts in my previous post, then his accurate economic analysis is moot. Urban Koistinen Feb 17 1994, 2:27 am show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: md85-...@hemul.nada.kth.se (Urban Koistinen) - Find messages by this author Date: 17 Feb 1994 10:27:59 GMT Local: Thurs, Feb 17 1994 2:27 am Subject: Re: Rotting of ICS Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In m...@pleasca.Eng.Sun.COM (Michael Browne) writes: >"Dear Mr. Gates: > Please send me a copy of your latest C compiler. I could write one >myself, but that would take a lot of effort that I feel would be wasted. >Since you already have a perfectly good C compiler, please stop hoarding it >and send me a copy immediately. > --Mike >P.S. - I'm going to need the source code too..." GNU C is a better compiler, and it comes with source too. If you like the shell and libraries of MSVC that is another matter. -- Urban Koistinen - md85-...@nada.kth.se Stop software patents, interface copyrights: contact l...@uunet.uu.net Michael Browne Feb 18 1994, 4:55 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.games.chess From: m...@pleasca.Eng.Sun.COM (Michael Browne) - Find messages by this author Date: 19 Feb 1994 00:55:48 GMT Local: Fri, Feb 18 1994 4:55 pm Subject: Re: why to berate someone who won't give y Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse In article 2jrvo5INN...@ PINE.THEORY.CS.YALE.EDU, aspnes-ja...@cs.yale.edu (James Aspnes) writes : > In article , > m...@pleasca.Eng.Sun.COM (Michael Browne) rears back, takes aim, > and punches bad old Comrade Marx right in the nose: > Yes indeed, Marxism is MUCH more efficient than Capitalism. Marxist > societies completely avoid the wasteful duplication of effort that is > an inherent part of Capitalism. > Oomf! Straw flies out of the Bearded Commie Devil from every seam! > But wait? Who are those injured-looking folks standing behind the > poor demolished scarecrow? Aren't those the people who were > complaining that releasing the ICS code would lead to lots of icky > competition, multiple servers with one player on each, and all-around > duplication of effort? And here I am, standing on the sidelines, > wondering why you would choose to stand with me against them. Actually, now that you point it out, I think I'm against all of you! :-) Seriously, I think that multiple-competing servers would be a good idea. However, I don't see the need to berate the existing admins until they give up the code. And more than that, I resent the idea that the admins have a moral obligation to give up the code... I'd like to see an alternate server effort get seriously underway, rather than a lot of whining... > I realize that you're probably adopting the usual Usenet approach of > writing a knee-jerk response to a few keywords without bothering to > examine their context, You mean that there's another way to do it?!? :-) > Oh yes, as for the cost of option 2: TANSTAAFL! The cost to YOU is zero. > Darooha and company have already paid the cost for you... > I'm talking about marginal costs. You know, what running-dog > capitalist economists care about. The marginal cost to Darooha (and > company?) of releasing the code is very close to zero. Depends. You can count lots of things as costs. For example, going from the big cheese ICS admin to one of many could be a substantial emotional cost. But aside from that "TANSTAAFL!" was poorly thought out. But if I let that stop me, I'd nver post anything... (stop cheering!) > In any case, this is getting pretty tangential. To recap: somebody > asked why someone would berate Darooha for not giving out the code. I > wouldn't berate Darooha for not giving out the code, certainly not in > this forum, because it would be pointless and counterproductive. Exactly. --Mike