Sounding Off on Civil Rights
A Q and A with Reginald Jones

By TERJE LANGELAND
Colorado Daily Staff Writer

Jones, the 35-year-old founder and CEO of a New York entertainment company, Reggitainment, calls himself an advocate of black self-sufficiency. He is also a Libertarian who opposes the War on Drugs and advocates free enterprise as the primary means of black advancement.

The Colorado Daily interviewed Jones by phone. What follows is a condensed version of the interview:

CD: The title of your speech, "Betrayed: Sold out by the civil-rights movement," is intriguing. What is it about?

Jones: The whole basic premise of my speech is that the position that black people find ourselves in today has less to do with racism and more to do with the present state of our leadership. ... It plays on our fears and ignorances and is keeping us, as the field slaves used to do, on the plantation. Particularly, the Democratic Party. They advocate positions that are harmful to black people, such as an enlarged welfare state, affirmative action and other things that do nothing for the rank and file black people ...

It shows that Marcus Garvey, Elijah Muhammed and Booker T. Washington were right, that if we do not take the initiative ourselves -- as we used to before the present state of black leadership -- of self-determination and empowerment, instead of relying on and feeding on the guilt of whites and the good will of whites, we'll run out soon ...

Instead of asking for affirmative action to get into white universities, why don't we build up our universities, the black universities, the United Negro College Fund, to the envy of the world, where whites are suing us to go to our schools?

CD: Are you saying that programs like affirmative action somehow create some kind of addiction ...

Jones: To helplessness. Yes, it does. Number one, you cannot correct a wrong with another wrong. It's unconstitutional to begin with, for the government to force someone to hire someone. Second of all, it takes away our competitive advantage. You know, nobody would argue that we should have affirmative action in the NBA for Asians. It would be ridiculous to argue that.

CD: Was there any point in history when affirmative action was necessary or justified in your opinion?

Jones: I never saw the reason for affirmative action. If you have, let's say the police department is 90 percent white, and the population of a city is 75 percent black, and blacks are passing the test at the same level or superior to that of whites, then it is necessary to have court action to remedy that, because this is a government system. But not in private enterprise.

CD: Do you still believe that racism is a problem that impedes the social progress of blacks?

Jones: I believe that racism is a given. When I wake up in the morning as a black man, if I don't realize that racism is a given, then where have I been? I haven't been on this planet very long. Of course it's there, but nothing can stop you from getting where you want to go unless you allow it to. The major problem is ... we spend 97 cents out of every dollar outside of our community, and then they go asking whites to give us something. That doesn't make any sense.

CD: You're talking about business?

Jones: The way we spend our dollars. We don't do business with each other like we should. We don't create businesses in our own community like we should. ... Success is always something that you can grab. Nobody is going to give it to you. Sure, people will help you along the way when you're willing to help yourself. But power, as the Honorable Elijah Muhammed said, is not something that someone gives you, it's something that you take. And the mentality of the black man in America needs to return to that militancy of Elijah Muhammed, Marcus Garvey and Booker T. Washington.

CD: Are you advocating some kind of black separatism?

Jones: Not separatism to the point of, "we don't do business with anyone else, we don't associate with anyone else." That's lunacy. I mean, this is America, after all. I'm not arguing for a separate nation. We built this nation; we shouldn't separate from it, not at all. But what I'm arguing is some form of that, in that we do what our foreparents did before there was a civil-rights movement ...

Today's civil-rights movement is not the civil-rights movement of my father or my grandfather. You know, those people were marching, fighting for their constitutional rights to vote and to go before the bar of justice as an equal citizen, as anyone else. They were not asking for special favors.

CD: So do you believe that the civil-rights movement started out on the right note but went wrong somewhere along the line?

Jones: Oh, absolutely it started out on the right note. It was a righteous movement led by a very righteous man, the Rev. Martin Luther King, who was the conscience of the country, which is why he brought it to its knees.

CD: When, in your view, did the civil-rights establishment take the wrong turn?

Jones: A long time back, in the '60s, when they aligned themselves with the socialists. Actually, it was a long time before that. I mean, (W.E.B.) DuBois ... DuBois and others wanted political power, as opposed to economic and social advancement of and by black people.

CD: A seat at the table.

Jones: Right, a seat at the table. And my idea is, why do we want a seat at their table? Who says their table is better than our table? The civil-rights movement was hi-jacked by black people who didn't have self-love, who felt that something that was done (by) black people was inferior ...

That's a slave mentality. Why did we think that Jackie Robinson going to the major leagues from the Negro Leagues was a promotion? ... We don't even send our best and brightest to black colleges. Our best and brightest athletes go to colleges not owned and operated by us.

CD: The title of your speech also seems to imply that the civil-rights leadership has something to gain. What is it that they have to gain?

Jones: Power from their masters, from their true masters. If we were the masters, if the black community were the people they were really serving, then they would be about the business of nation-building within the black community. We spend 30 million dollars a year going to conferences and the main topic of discussion is the white man.

CD: Are you saying that the civil-rights leaders personally benefit?

Jones: Absolutely. Al Sharpton -- how does this man afford to have a ringside seat at a fight and nobody can tell what the man does for a living or where his money comes from? ...

And that's the other thing, why do they advocate the policies and take the side of different entities who they share power with, or from whom they derive their power, instead of looking after the people at the grassroots? The education system is a perfect example. The majority of black parents are trying to get their parents out of these concentration camps they call public schools. And who is fighting them every step of the way? The teachers' unions, aligned with black leaders, who don't send their kids to government schools. Jesse Jackson sent his kids to school with the Gores and the Kennedys and the Clintons. But the black parents in Chocolate City, their kids are being destroyed by the government school system.

CD: So is integration not a priority for you?

Jones: It's never been a priority; I've always been against integration. I have always been in favor of desegregation -- there's a difference. You know, segregation was imposed by the government. ... Integration is government forcing people together and what integration did was we abandoned our own. We abandoned our neighborhoods, our schools, our businesses, to go where we were not wanted.

CD: If blacks still face the hurdle of racism in succeeding, is it not the role of government to do anything at all to try to level the playing field?

Jones: No. First of all, governments were instituted for these reasons: to protect our life, our liberty and our pursuit of property. Nothing else. Any time government gets into anything else, you have tyranny, number one. Number two, I do not want a level playing field. What I want black people to do is level the players and take the field.

CD: Do you eventually envision that society will integrate itself, but not by the force of government?

Jones: Society has done that already. By and large, society has done that. If you look at rap music, for instance, the majority of rap records are bought by white teens.

CD: So you're not necessarily advocating separatism as something to strive toward?

Jones: No, I'm not saying strive to be separate. What I'm saying, though, is that black people should strive to be what we have always been capable of being: the greatest. And we are that, we have always been that. ... The true test of gold is fire, which means we're gold because we've definitely been through the fire in this country.

CD: At CU, there's been controversy over a diversity plan, where student groups have wanted stronger incentives for increasing the number of minorities enrolled. Also, this university has an administration that has very few people of color, and black males are almost absent. Should CU not make an effort to bring in more people of color?

Jones: I don't have any problem whatsoever with the university, as they say, "reaching out."

CD: But are you saying that black people shouldn't be too hung up on getting into CU?

Jones: Absolutely, that's what I'm saying. ... If diversity happens, that's fine. But to make diversity a goal in itself doesn't make any sense. I mean, I'm a fan of the Wu-Tang Clan. I don't want to see diversity in the Wu-Tang Clan ...

Are we suddenly going to integrate the Harlem Globetrotters, for instance? Nobody would suggest such a thing.

CD: How did you become convinced of your current philosophy?

Jones: It's always been that way. ... At a young age, I read a book by Elijah Muhammed, who was the founder of the Nation of Islam. It was called "Message to the Black Man." It's one of the most powerful books I've ever read, although I'm not a Muslim; I'm a Christian. But it was the things in the book that Mr. Muhammed was talking about, about self-determination ...

He said it's a foolish man to ask for power from his slave master, to ask for justice from a slave master. You have to take it yourself, as he says. And reading the book "Up From Slavery" about Booker T. Washington, the teachings of Marcus Garvey, I was very exposed to the Black Power mindset. The only difference is, I don't have any hatred of whites.

CD: We had Ward Connerly speaking here I think about a year ago, and he walked into a pretty hostile environment.

Jones: As I expect to.

CD: Yeah, what is it about that? Are there a lot of black people who don't see things the way you do?

Jones: Yes, absolutely. I mean, first of all, we seem to have this idea that because black leadership says something, that's just the way it is, because they appeal to emotion, not intellect. They don't use reason, they use emotion. And when you're emotional, you can't really think straight ...

It's not easy standing and putting your neck out to be ridiculed by the very people you are trying to help because the debate is shut down. People don't want to be faced with the truth. They would rather believe in what they believe in and not have to admit that they have been wrong. It's the hardest thing for people to do.

It's easier to say, "I'm a victim," and that's because then, you can't expect anything from me. If I can say, "but the white man, but the white man, but the white man," that means, don't expect me to get any better, don't expect me to take responsibility for myself.

CD: Have you experienced much racism in your life?

Jones: Of course, of course. I mean, you know, "driving while black," I've had to deal with that, of course. You know, being pulled over. "You fit the description," I've gotten that a lot.

CD: What do you do about something like that? Again, should government play a role?

Jones: The government is playing a role; the government is the one doing that! ...

The government, the first thing they can do, is stop the War on Drugs. ... And I'm not an advocate of drug use -- I always have to tell people that, because I have been drug and alcohol free my whole life, thank God ...

Blacks do less drugs than whites, but if you look at the federal prisons, they're overwhelmingly black. Now tell me that that's not racist. It doesn't make any sense. There's more drugs being done in Beverly Hills 90210 then there is in Bedford-Stuyvesant in Brooklyn. But look at the prison population and what do you see? They're disenfranchising black men; it's diluting the black vote ... It's devastating.