Bible Q & A

How can I argue for the existence of God from a scientific and logical standpoint?

Christian: I think if one studies science, he or she must conclude a creator god exists Listener: How so? Christian: Do you think there is order in the universe? Listener: No. Christian: Your ability to speak words in such an order that your meaning can be determined by a listener proves you wrong. Listener: Some order, not totally ordered. Christian: Some is enough for our discussion. Where did that order come from? Listener: Evolution? Christian: We know the Laws of Nature are ordered and they didn't evolve (nor did animals but that should be left for another discussion). Where did they come from? Listener: They're not ordered Christian: But they cause things to be ordered, like snowflakes and molecules. Listener: Yes Christian: How can something that is not ordered order anything? If something is not ordered, it is totally random. How can the Laws be totally random and order anything? That is a logical impossibility Listener: The Laws changed from what they were in the beginning. Christian:  So the Laws of Nature are changing today? Despite scientific research to the contrary, say they've changed, they still could not have once been totally random and then ordered themselves. Listener: Lots of things order themselves, like snowflakes. Christian: They don't order themselves, they are ordered by the Laws of Nature. Listener: The Laws of nature are not things, they are a part of the universe. Christian: That doesn't change my argument, in fact it strengthens it. You are saying the ordered laws are actually the universe itself thus the universe itself has at least some order because a part of the universe is ordered. So where did the ordered Laws of Nature come from? Listener: They always existed. Christian: The universe (including space, matter and time itself) had a beginning per the Space-Time Theorem of General Relativity (Hawking, Penrose) at the Big Bang. Listener: Hawking and others do not believe in a beginning. Christian: Yet they have not refuted the Theorem I mentioned, which has stood for decades. A belief that involves pure speculation does not hold up to an evidence-based theorem. So where did the ordered laws come from? Listener: Maybe the universe expands and collapses forever (called an "oscillation universe"). Christian: There are several reasons why it can't 1) the universe doesn't look like it will ever stop expanding according to Cosmologists and 2) according to Cosmologists, the universe could not expand and collapse more than a few times before it stopped. Listener: We don't know how the Laws got ordered yet. Christian: So you have faith, without evidence, that we will know "someday"? That's the very definition of blind faith. Listener: Science has always filled in the gaps. Christian: This is one gap science will have trouble filling because if the Laws were ordered from the beginning of the universe, which they were, then the answer to where they came from has to be outside the universe. Science can never know anything about what is outside the universe. Listener: Maybe the Laws ordered or created themselves. Christian: Logically, something cannot be self created because it would have to exist before it started to exist Listener: Why can't science know about something outside the universe? Christian: Can science be used to determine supernatural things? Listener: No. Christian: "Supernatural" simply means outside nature. Now, we have determined the Laws of Nature are ordered and came from outside the universe. Therefore, since the Laws of Nature are ordered, they must have an orderer. Since they came from outside the universe, that orderer must have worked from outside the universe. Listener: If the Laws of Nature need a orderer, so does that orderer. Christian: Only ordered things that had a beginning. So the universe and the Laws of Nature require a beginner. Something that has no beginning cannot have a beginner. Thus, the orderer needs no beginner because he had no beginning. Listener: How do you know he had no beginning? Christian: Because there is no evidence and per the Theorem I mentioned, Time itself came about at the Big Bang. No Time, no beginning. Listener: How could something do anything without Time itself? Christian: The alternative is that the universe came about with order all by itself. We know order cannot come from nothing or total randomness. So something must have acted outside of Time, that much we know. The orderer might have some sort of attribute that acts something like a time domain. That is one way the orderer could do something outside of time.  Listener: The Laws may be ordered but you didn't show the universe is ordered. Christian: I have shown that at least part of the universe requires an orderer, so an orderer exists.  Also, it doesn't make sense to assume the orderer of the Laws of Nature didn't create the entire universe. Listener: How do you know the orderer is the Christian God? Christian: So we have reached our goal of showing god exists

To continue, the listener must agree at this point to the idea that god exists beyond a reasonable doubt per the the argument above and the evidence. Note that one god exists per Occam’s Razor which appeals to the idea that two of the same solutions or more complex solutions should not be proposed where one or a simpler solution will do.

Listener: How do you know the orderer is the Christian God? Christian: Because the God of the Bible is the only one that matches the attributes of the god we determined exists. All other "gods" do not.***

*** Details about who the god that exists is can be found on the web site: http://wwcw.org/whoisorderer.html.

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